12 ms·

This is ridiculous. The wars are incredibly different in literally every way. Every war has horrible tragedies and innocent lives lost or harmed, but to sugges

This is ridiculous. The wars are incredibly different in literally every way. Every war has horrible tragedies and innocent lives lost or harmed, but to suggest invading a stable democracy to annex it is even remotely the same as supporting a locally led uprising against a murderous dictator like in Syria is absurd and offensive.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
- synu 4y ago
  You can find embarrassing far right extremists and parties in every country these days. Ukraine is hardly a new nazi Germany.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    How many of those far right groups were integrated into national armies, as Azov was?
    - synu 4y ago
      Lots, of course. Authoritarians are attracted to militias and militaries. Even in the US: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/inside-u-s-military-s-battle-white-supremacy-far-right-ncna1010221 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/inside-u-s-military-s-.... https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv4qp/oath-keepers-us-capitol-stewart-rhodes-far-right-military https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv4qp/oath-keepers-us-capit... has examples from more western countries (I don’t really know what particular evidence you’re looking for that would convince you, but there’s lots out there.)
      - somenameforme 4y ago
        I don't think these sort of things are very comparable. Of course you'll always find extremists in militaries. But in this case the military itself integrated a real Nazi militia as an independent state force. It would be like if the US marines officially recognized the Aryan Brotherhood and gave them their own unit, including with integrating overt Nazi symbols as part of their uniform.
        synu 4y ago
        Sure, I would definitely agree they are worse in a lot of ways. I don’t really agree their existence is proof that all of Ukraine is a new Nazi Germany and therefore the invasion by Russia is justified. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying either, but that’s where this conversation started.
        somenameforme 4y ago
        No, that's definitely not what I'm saying. And I also didn't read the original post that way. There are a lot of problems in Ukraine (outside of this war) and they have also done some pretty awful things. Many of the things that go unstated in our media can go some way towards explaining the war, but there's a difference between explaining and justifying. And I increasingly feel that that nuance is being lost in society, which divides us all even further.
        synu 4y ago
        The original is flagged now, but if we read it differently it makes sense we are coming away with different interpretations. In my opinion the person doesn’t seem particularly well informed about basic facts - getting the names of places and regions wrong - and their main argument seems to be that the US has done bad things, so there’s no point inconveniencing ourselves to try to stop Russia and I’m not really sure that follows. I didn’t (personally) find a lot of nuance in the discussion. I do agree that in general nuance and understanding are missing a lot of the times these days.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - pydry 4y ago
    Azov isnt unique because it has extremists. It's unique because: * It was founded by a nazi and most of its members appear to be nazis. * It committed atrocities in a civil war against ethnic russians. * It was instrumental in keeping ethnically russian majority areas of Ukraine under Ukraines control. * It was made an official part of the army and lavished with praise by poroshenko despite being largely nazi and having committed atrocities because territory. * When Zelensky came to them asking them to lay down their arms and help end the civil war they told him no and denounced him as a traitor. Officially they have little power or democratic mandate but they told the president that the war shall continue until its bitter end and he capitulated. In the west nazis dont have that kind of power.
  - xedrac 4y ago
    https://paulhjossey.medium.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-deal-with-it-b7f12cc53b6f https://paulhjossey.medium.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-deal-... The Nazis were just as much far left as far right, if not more. It's funny to me how people are unwilling to acknowledge this.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - synu 4y ago
      They seem to mainly be celebrated by people today (at least by the types who celebrate that sort of thing) for their white supremacism rather than their leftist policies.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      The authoritarian far left and far right are very close together, with a tiny bit different politics, but the same end results. It's not a coincidence that the commies and the nazis started the WW2 together... somehow the modern left forgets the soviets/communist involvement.
- 5ersi 4y ago
  Ahh yes, bad Ukrainians because they fought against "russian minorities" annexing Crimea and eastern regions. /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    - synu 4y ago
      They said “Crimea and eastern regions”.
    - vkou 4y ago
      I understand that Donbas may be a western region from where you are standing, but it's an eastern region of Ukraine.
      - tigershark 4y ago
        You can always tell when someone is polluting HN with Russian propaganda from these small details other than their obviously toxic pro-Putin narrative…
        ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        As I said 15 times before, i'm from slovenia. Ukraine was attacking russian minorities in donbas and lugansk. I'm not pro putin, i'm just saying that we're not any better than him, while acting so, and that we're destroying our own countries with sanctions, that don't hurt putin but hurt as. Maybe we deserve them though, but i'd prefer better economy for us.
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        “Donbas and lugansk” is not a thing. You are incorrect about very basic details in these issues, that I’d advise actually listening to people that know “Donbas” refers to both Donetsk and Luhansk Republics, for starters, unlike yourself.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Of course, these Russian minority casualties died as collateral from Russia and Russian backed separatists as well as from Ukraine. And more saliently, Russia is the aggressor so none of those people would have died if they hadn’t put Ukraine into an existential position.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    But the same reasoning works for Assad: all of his victims are collateral from fighting Western-supported rebels as well as ISIS. He has every right to say that the West (and a bit of Turkey) are aggressors and he is defending his country by bombing cities in it.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      Nonsense. Assad deliberately used chemical and kinetic weapons on civilians, moreover neither the US nor other western countries are using this as a pretext for annexing Syria. There is no analogue.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        Ukraine deliberately shelled civians for 8 years, so what? Their routine tactics of dealing with rebels is to bomb civians dear to those rebels. When they don't hope to make territorial gains, they wish to inflict some damage and civian targets are way easier to hit. This week, they're using freshly supplied M777 to bomb areas of Donetsk they could not reach previously. Such as by hitting four schools in a single day. How is this principially different from Assad?
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        > Assad deliberately used chemical and kinetic weapons on civilians So did NATO in 1999 bombing of yugoslavia. https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/may/08/balkans https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/may/08/balkans <- cluster bombing a (farmers) market https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/24/balkans3 https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/24/balkans3 <- tv station, "Serb TV station was legitimate target, says Blair" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing <- civilian train and bridge (and having to speed up the video, to make it seem non-intentional) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48134881 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48134881 <- even a chinese embassy http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/07/nato.attack.01/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/07/nato.attack.01/i... <- "school, a monastery and other civilian facilities" http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/14/refugees.02/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/14/refugees.02/inde... <- albanian refugees http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/01/kosovo.military.02/ http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/01/kosovo.military.... <- bus etc.
- simonh 4y ago
  Azoic is a tiny group relative to the whole population that barely registers as a factor in Ukrainian politics. Using them as a reason to invade the nation of Ukraine is a ridiculous excuse. How can a government be nazis if their leader is Jewish? It’s contrived conspiracy theory nonsense.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Weren't they integrated into the national army?
    - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
      They were. Most of the right-wing elements (there weren't that many of them as Kremlin propaganda would like you to believe) were purged as part of this process, or left the battalion themselves. There's a decent article on this (from a strongly pro-Ukraine publication) that expounds on this theme in a relatively neutral way (IMHO). The sad thing it's in Russian, but should be readable through the magic of google translate if you're interested enough. https://meduza.io/feature/2022/04/17/ot-bandery-do-azova-otvechaem-na-glavnye-voprosy-ob-ukrainskom-natsionalizme https://meduza.io/feature/2022/04/17/ot-bandery-do-azova-otv...
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - somenameforme 4y ago
        This [1] is an article from Time in 2018. You can find other countless similar articles elsewhere. You'll find that the narrative before and after the Ukraine war took an extremely hard 180 to the point of absurdity. Just one segment from the article: "After the worst such [anti-Islam terror] attack in recent years—the massacre of 51 people in Christchurch, New Zealand, in 2019—an arm of the Azov movement helped distribute the terrorist’s raving manifesto, in print and online, seeking to glorify his crimes and inspire others to follow. .... It might seem ironic for this hub of white nationalists to be situated in Ukraine. At one point in 2019, it was the only nation in the world, apart from Israel, to have a Jewish President and a Jewish Prime Minister. Far-right politicians failed to win a single seat in parliament in the most recent elections. But in the context of the white-supremacist movement globally, Azov has no rivals on two important fronts: its access to weapons and its recruiting power." There's also stuff like [2] which is a freedom-of-information act report from the Department of Homeland Security. They're concerned about the fact that "Ukrainian nationalist groups including the Azo[v] Movement are actively recruiting racially or ethnically motivated violent extremist-white supremacists (RMVE-WS) to join various neo-Nazi volunteer battalions in the war against Russia". This whole thing is becoming increasingly absurd where the information warfare is gradually moving from propaganda to 1984. [1] - https://time.com/5926750/azov-far-right-movement-facebook/ https://time.com/5926750/azov-far-right-movement-facebook/ [2] - https://propertyofthepeople.org/document-detail/?doc-id=22022879 https://propertyofthepeople.org/document-detail/?doc-id=2202...
skinnymuch 4y ago
Is the west’s [silent] support of Yemen’s slaughter any different? That’s a travesty just as much as Ukraine. To be clear, I don’t agree we shouldn’t sanction Russia. EU should remove its dependence on Russia since Putin doesn’t seem to be going any where and if he does, we don’t know what that means
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  > EU should remove its dependence on Russia But our politicians are fucking up that too... just look at the german fight against nuclear power, while being happy to buy coal-generated power from poland. We have a nuclear powerplant in slovenia, and we're talking about expanding it for literally 30 years now, and all the arguments against it are "this will take 10years, that is too long, we need power now". ...well, and austrians protesting against it.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    I always feel bad my Slovene friend and I only talk about world or US stuff. Now I have something to talk about for her country! Sucks that the topic is not a completely positive one though. Hopefully some progress will be made
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Some one posted that Yemen is complicated. It really isn’t. If the exact same Yemenese conflict was happening to a white country or a country involving China or Russia no matter what, the world would be all over it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sudosysgen 4y ago
If you think the US actually acted in Syria to increase human rights and reduce bloodshed I have a few bridges to sell you. From the very beginning the "locally led uprising" was 50% Islamists. And by the way, Turkey is essentially annexing Syria right now. Unlike Ukrainians, the Syrians can't meaningfully fight back because Turkey is in NATO, so their forces have absolute safe harbor. Beyond this, there is no reasonable moral argument that an annexation is any worse than installing a puppet dictator.
- maleldil 4y ago
  > Unlike Ukrainians, the Syrians can't meaningfully fight back because Turkey is in NATO, so their forces have absolute safe harbor. NATO won't protect Turkey if they are the aggressors. NATO is a defensive alliance.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Who exactly was nato defending when they bombed yugoslavia in 1999?
    - reducesuffering 4y ago
      The remaining Kosovar Albanians Muslims after 8000 were killed by Serbia.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        You also need to read this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200319062355/http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200319062355/http://www.michae...
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        Parenti is a Marxist https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08854309808428215 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0885430980842821...

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

synu 4y ago
You can find embarrassing far right extremists and parties in every country these days. Ukraine is hardly a new nazi Germany.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  How many of those far right groups were integrated into national armies, as Azov was?
  - synu 4y ago
    Lots, of course. Authoritarians are attracted to militias and militaries. Even in the US: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/inside-u-s-military-s-battle-white-supremacy-far-right-ncna1010221 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/inside-u-s-military-s-.... https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv4qp/oath-keepers-us-capitol-stewart-rhodes-far-right-military https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv4qp/oath-keepers-us-capit... has examples from more western countries (I don’t really know what particular evidence you’re looking for that would convince you, but there’s lots out there.)
    - somenameforme 4y ago
      I don't think these sort of things are very comparable. Of course you'll always find extremists in militaries. But in this case the military itself integrated a real Nazi militia as an independent state force. It would be like if the US marines officially recognized the Aryan Brotherhood and gave them their own unit, including with integrating overt Nazi symbols as part of their uniform.
      - synu 4y ago
        Sure, I would definitely agree they are worse in a lot of ways. I don’t really agree their existence is proof that all of Ukraine is a new Nazi Germany and therefore the invasion by Russia is justified. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying either, but that’s where this conversation started.
        somenameforme 4y ago
        No, that's definitely not what I'm saying. And I also didn't read the original post that way. There are a lot of problems in Ukraine (outside of this war) and they have also done some pretty awful things. Many of the things that go unstated in our media can go some way towards explaining the war, but there's a difference between explaining and justifying. And I increasingly feel that that nuance is being lost in society, which divides us all even further.
        synu 4y ago
        The original is flagged now, but if we read it differently it makes sense we are coming away with different interpretations. In my opinion the person doesn’t seem particularly well informed about basic facts - getting the names of places and regions wrong - and their main argument seems to be that the US has done bad things, so there’s no point inconveniencing ourselves to try to stop Russia and I’m not really sure that follows. I didn’t (personally) find a lot of nuance in the discussion. I do agree that in general nuance and understanding are missing a lot of the times these days.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- pydry 4y ago
  Azov isnt unique because it has extremists. It's unique because: * It was founded by a nazi and most of its members appear to be nazis. * It committed atrocities in a civil war against ethnic russians. * It was instrumental in keeping ethnically russian majority areas of Ukraine under Ukraines control. * It was made an official part of the army and lavished with praise by poroshenko despite being largely nazi and having committed atrocities because territory. * When Zelensky came to them asking them to lay down their arms and help end the civil war they told him no and denounced him as a traitor. Officially they have little power or democratic mandate but they told the president that the war shall continue until its bitter end and he capitulated. In the west nazis dont have that kind of power.
- xedrac 4y ago
  https://paulhjossey.medium.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-deal-with-it-b7f12cc53b6f https://paulhjossey.medium.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-deal-... The Nazis were just as much far left as far right, if not more. It's funny to me how people are unwilling to acknowledge this.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - synu 4y ago
    They seem to mainly be celebrated by people today (at least by the types who celebrate that sort of thing) for their white supremacism rather than their leftist policies.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    The authoritarian far left and far right are very close together, with a tiny bit different politics, but the same end results. It's not a coincidence that the commies and the nazis started the WW2 together... somehow the modern left forgets the soviets/communist involvement.
5ersi 4y ago
Ahh yes, bad Ukrainians because they fought against "russian minorities" annexing Crimea and eastern regions. /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  - synu 4y ago
    They said “Crimea and eastern regions”.
  - vkou 4y ago
    I understand that Donbas may be a western region from where you are standing, but it's an eastern region of Ukraine.
    - tigershark 4y ago
      You can always tell when someone is polluting HN with Russian propaganda from these small details other than their obviously toxic pro-Putin narrative…
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        As I said 15 times before, i'm from slovenia. Ukraine was attacking russian minorities in donbas and lugansk. I'm not pro putin, i'm just saying that we're not any better than him, while acting so, and that we're destroying our own countries with sanctions, that don't hurt putin but hurt as. Maybe we deserve them though, but i'd prefer better economy for us.
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        “Donbas and lugansk” is not a thing. You are incorrect about very basic details in these issues, that I’d advise actually listening to people that know “Donbas” refers to both Donetsk and Luhansk Republics, for starters, unlike yourself.
throwaway894345 4y ago
Of course, these Russian minority casualties died as collateral from Russia and Russian backed separatists as well as from Ukraine. And more saliently, Russia is the aggressor so none of those people would have died if they hadn’t put Ukraine into an existential position.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  But the same reasoning works for Assad: all of his victims are collateral from fighting Western-supported rebels as well as ISIS. He has every right to say that the West (and a bit of Turkey) are aggressors and he is defending his country by bombing cities in it.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    Nonsense. Assad deliberately used chemical and kinetic weapons on civilians, moreover neither the US nor other western countries are using this as a pretext for annexing Syria. There is no analogue.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      Ukraine deliberately shelled civians for 8 years, so what? Their routine tactics of dealing with rebels is to bomb civians dear to those rebels. When they don't hope to make territorial gains, they wish to inflict some damage and civian targets are way easier to hit. This week, they're using freshly supplied M777 to bomb areas of Donetsk they could not reach previously. Such as by hitting four schools in a single day. How is this principially different from Assad?
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      > Assad deliberately used chemical and kinetic weapons on civilians So did NATO in 1999 bombing of yugoslavia. https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/may/08/balkans https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/may/08/balkans <- cluster bombing a (farmers) market https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/24/balkans3 https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/24/balkans3 <- tv station, "Serb TV station was legitimate target, says Blair" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing <- civilian train and bridge (and having to speed up the video, to make it seem non-intentional) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48134881 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48134881 <- even a chinese embassy http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/07/nato.attack.01/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/07/nato.attack.01/i... <- "school, a monastery and other civilian facilities" http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/14/refugees.02/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/14/refugees.02/inde... <- albanian refugees http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/01/kosovo.military.02/ http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/01/kosovo.military.... <- bus etc.
simonh 4y ago
Azoic is a tiny group relative to the whole population that barely registers as a factor in Ukrainian politics. Using them as a reason to invade the nation of Ukraine is a ridiculous excuse. How can a government be nazis if their leader is Jewish? It’s contrived conspiracy theory nonsense.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Weren't they integrated into the national army?
  - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
    They were. Most of the right-wing elements (there weren't that many of them as Kremlin propaganda would like you to believe) were purged as part of this process, or left the battalion themselves. There's a decent article on this (from a strongly pro-Ukraine publication) that expounds on this theme in a relatively neutral way (IMHO). The sad thing it's in Russian, but should be readable through the magic of google translate if you're interested enough. https://meduza.io/feature/2022/04/17/ot-bandery-do-azova-otvechaem-na-glavnye-voprosy-ob-ukrainskom-natsionalizme https://meduza.io/feature/2022/04/17/ot-bandery-do-azova-otv...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - somenameforme 4y ago
      This [1] is an article from Time in 2018. You can find other countless similar articles elsewhere. You'll find that the narrative before and after the Ukraine war took an extremely hard 180 to the point of absurdity. Just one segment from the article: "After the worst such [anti-Islam terror] attack in recent years—the massacre of 51 people in Christchurch, New Zealand, in 2019—an arm of the Azov movement helped distribute the terrorist’s raving manifesto, in print and online, seeking to glorify his crimes and inspire others to follow. .... It might seem ironic for this hub of white nationalists to be situated in Ukraine. At one point in 2019, it was the only nation in the world, apart from Israel, to have a Jewish President and a Jewish Prime Minister. Far-right politicians failed to win a single seat in parliament in the most recent elections. But in the context of the white-supremacist movement globally, Azov has no rivals on two important fronts: its access to weapons and its recruiting power." There's also stuff like [2] which is a freedom-of-information act report from the Department of Homeland Security. They're concerned about the fact that "Ukrainian nationalist groups including the Azo[v] Movement are actively recruiting racially or ethnically motivated violent extremist-white supremacists (RMVE-WS) to join various neo-Nazi volunteer battalions in the war against Russia". This whole thing is becoming increasingly absurd where the information warfare is gradually moving from propaganda to 1984. [1] - https://time.com/5926750/azov-far-right-movement-facebook/ https://time.com/5926750/azov-far-right-movement-facebook/ [2] - https://propertyofthepeople.org/document-detail/?doc-id=22022879 https://propertyofthepeople.org/document-detail/?doc-id=2202...

skinnymuch 4y ago

Is the west’s [silent] support of Yemen’s slaughter any different? That’s a travesty just as much as Ukraine. To be clear, I don’t agree we shouldn’t sanction Russia. EU should remove its dependence on Russia since Putin doesn’t seem to be going any where and if he does, we don’t know what that means

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
> EU should remove its dependence on Russia But our politicians are fucking up that too... just look at the german fight against nuclear power, while being happy to buy coal-generated power from poland. We have a nuclear powerplant in slovenia, and we're talking about expanding it for literally 30 years now, and all the arguments against it are "this will take 10years, that is too long, we need power now". ...well, and austrians protesting against it.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  I always feel bad my Slovene friend and I only talk about world or US stuff. Now I have something to talk about for her country! Sucks that the topic is not a completely positive one though. Hopefully some progress will be made
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
skinnymuch 4y ago
Some one posted that Yemen is complicated. It really isn’t. If the exact same Yemenese conflict was happening to a white country or a country involving China or Russia no matter what, the world would be all over it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

sudosysgen 4y ago

If you think the US actually acted in Syria to increase human rights and reduce bloodshed I have a few bridges to sell you. From the very beginning the "locally led uprising" was 50% Islamists. And by the way, Turkey is essentially annexing Syria right now. Unlike Ukrainians, the Syrians can't meaningfully fight back because Turkey is in NATO, so their forces have absolute safe harbor. Beyond this, there is no reasonable moral argument that an annexation is any worse than installing a puppet dictator.

maleldil 4y ago
> Unlike Ukrainians, the Syrians can't meaningfully fight back because Turkey is in NATO, so their forces have absolute safe harbor. NATO won't protect Turkey if they are the aggressors. NATO is a defensive alliance.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Who exactly was nato defending when they bombed yugoslavia in 1999?
  - reducesuffering 4y ago
    The remaining Kosovar Albanians Muslims after 8000 were killed by Serbia.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      You also need to read this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200319062355/http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200319062355/http://www.michae...
      - reducesuffering 4y ago
        Parenti is a Marxist https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08854309808428215 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0885430980842821...