4 ms·

> Unfortunately Why is that unfortunate? If I patronize a company, I want to be damn sure they are only giving up info to LEO when it's absolutely necessary.

bayesian_horse 4y ago
If I'm a decent Human being I'd rather no company helps criminals do crime stuff. The standards to turn over such information should not be decided by a private entity but by democratically enacted and enforced laws. Is enforcement of child porn prosecution "absolutely necessary"? Are death threats ok? Where's the line? I don't think a private company sitting in an unaccountable jurisdiction should make that decision. I trust German courts a lot more in that regard.
- Zak 4y ago
  I'm inclined to agree, partly. If companies have the information, they should not have the last word about whether law enforcement gets access. That said, I do consider properly secure communication tools desirable and am very concerned about ongoing attempts to ban them. The uncomfortable truth is that if a communication method isn't secure for child molesters and terrorists, it isn't really secure for anyone.
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    In the case of Telegram they do require you to use a mobile phone number to sign up and use their service. Mainly so they can be sure you don't abuse THEM, mostly. So the safety of criminals from law enforcement does come from Telegram refusing to give up information they have. And this concerns an area of crimes were the perpetrators don't very actively evade detection. There are other means to do so. And in the case of Germany, openly and publicly criticizing against the state is no problem as long as you don't propose to violently overthrow the state.
- kingcharles 4y ago
  But different jurisdictions have different rules? For instance, are you OK with a country that outlaws homosexual acts firing hundreds of subpoenas at a company to be able to target its gay users? CSAM is also a wide spectrum offense, with many jurisdictions now banning cartoon images, CG images and pictures of dolls. I'm not for total chaos. It's just that the world is a very complicated place.
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    It's less complicated if you don't do business in countries whose jurisdictions you don't trust. The European Union largely outlaws any such abuse by authorities. Depending on tech companies to protect your data from authorities is a shitty strategy. At best it works the other way around. If not, you're screwed.
    - hvis 4y ago
      The vast majority of users of Telegram come from (and reside in) a country whose jurisdiction you probably wouldn't trust. Most of its developers, too (though they have relocated).
      - bayesian_horse 4y ago
        Translation: If you trust Telegram, you're screwed anyway.
    - djbebs 4y ago
      Lol
- gentleman11 4y ago
  > If I'm a decent Human being I'd rather no company helps criminals do crime stuff. Does that include gas stations, supermarkets, utility companies, sporting goods stores, book stores, clothing stores? Each sells things that are used to aid in crimes. That doesn’t mean the government should spy on everybody who visits them
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > Each sells things that are used to aid in crimes. That doesn’t mean the government should spy on everybody who visits them Of course they do and have been doing it for the longest time. that's why they are forced to keep a record of what they sell and hand over that information upon request. It's the authorities it's not some random dude passing by
- Teever 4y ago
  whats your view on the war in Ukraine? wuat if I told you that calling it a war is a crime in Russia? Congrats, you're a criminal.
- bradknowles 4y ago
  The problem is when the definition of "crime" changes. Is crime in Saudi Arabia anything that MBS doesn't like? In the 30s and 40s in Germany, just being Jewish was a crime. Whether you need modern or historical references, the problem is the same.
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    Don't do business in those countries. Simple solution. Trusting a private company to keep you safe from your jurisdiction is a stupid idea.
    - bradknowles 4y ago
      So, don't do business in Germany? Because they sure changed the rules, starting in the mid-30s. Don't do business in France? Russia? Saudi Arabia? China? Are there any countries which have never changed the rules?
      - bayesian_horse 4y ago
        "Never changed"? What a ridiculous and stupid standard. Germany's constitution is one of the best at guarding individual rights, and as far as nations go, it has one of the best chances for staying that way. German courts are a much better instance for judging what is a reason to turn over personal information, than any private company ever could be, especially Telegram. No, don't do business in Russia, Saudi Arabia or China, unless you plan on turning in your clients. Greed makes companies overlook these problems. They tend to eventually regret it, because they can't even make a decent profit when, for example, Russia does what it just did.

bayesian_horse 4y ago

If I'm a decent Human being I'd rather no company helps criminals do crime stuff. The standards to turn over such information should not be decided by a private entity but by democratically enacted and enforced laws. Is enforcement of child porn prosecution "absolutely necessary"? Are death threats ok? Where's the line? I don't think a private company sitting in an unaccountable jurisdiction should make that decision. I trust German courts a lot more in that regard.

Zak 4y ago
I'm inclined to agree, partly. If companies have the information, they should not have the last word about whether law enforcement gets access. That said, I do consider properly secure communication tools desirable and am very concerned about ongoing attempts to ban them. The uncomfortable truth is that if a communication method isn't secure for child molesters and terrorists, it isn't really secure for anyone.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  In the case of Telegram they do require you to use a mobile phone number to sign up and use their service. Mainly so they can be sure you don't abuse THEM, mostly. So the safety of criminals from law enforcement does come from Telegram refusing to give up information they have. And this concerns an area of crimes were the perpetrators don't very actively evade detection. There are other means to do so. And in the case of Germany, openly and publicly criticizing against the state is no problem as long as you don't propose to violently overthrow the state.
kingcharles 4y ago
But different jurisdictions have different rules? For instance, are you OK with a country that outlaws homosexual acts firing hundreds of subpoenas at a company to be able to target its gay users? CSAM is also a wide spectrum offense, with many jurisdictions now banning cartoon images, CG images and pictures of dolls. I'm not for total chaos. It's just that the world is a very complicated place.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  It's less complicated if you don't do business in countries whose jurisdictions you don't trust. The European Union largely outlaws any such abuse by authorities. Depending on tech companies to protect your data from authorities is a shitty strategy. At best it works the other way around. If not, you're screwed.
  - hvis 4y ago
    The vast majority of users of Telegram come from (and reside in) a country whose jurisdiction you probably wouldn't trust. Most of its developers, too (though they have relocated).
    - bayesian_horse 4y ago
      Translation: If you trust Telegram, you're screwed anyway.
  - djbebs 4y ago
    Lol
gentleman11 4y ago
> If I'm a decent Human being I'd rather no company helps criminals do crime stuff. Does that include gas stations, supermarkets, utility companies, sporting goods stores, book stores, clothing stores? Each sells things that are used to aid in crimes. That doesn’t mean the government should spy on everybody who visits them
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Each sells things that are used to aid in crimes. That doesn’t mean the government should spy on everybody who visits them Of course they do and have been doing it for the longest time. that's why they are forced to keep a record of what they sell and hand over that information upon request. It's the authorities it's not some random dude passing by
Teever 4y ago
whats your view on the war in Ukraine? wuat if I told you that calling it a war is a crime in Russia? Congrats, you're a criminal.
bradknowles 4y ago
The problem is when the definition of "crime" changes. Is crime in Saudi Arabia anything that MBS doesn't like? In the 30s and 40s in Germany, just being Jewish was a crime. Whether you need modern or historical references, the problem is the same.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  Don't do business in those countries. Simple solution. Trusting a private company to keep you safe from your jurisdiction is a stupid idea.
  - bradknowles 4y ago
    So, don't do business in Germany? Because they sure changed the rules, starting in the mid-30s. Don't do business in France? Russia? Saudi Arabia? China? Are there any countries which have never changed the rules?
    - bayesian_horse 4y ago
      "Never changed"? What a ridiculous and stupid standard. Germany's constitution is one of the best at guarding individual rights, and as far as nations go, it has one of the best chances for staying that way. German courts are a much better instance for judging what is a reason to turn over personal information, than any private company ever could be, especially Telegram. No, don't do business in Russia, Saudi Arabia or China, unless you plan on turning in your clients. Greed makes companies overlook these problems. They tend to eventually regret it, because they can't even make a decent profit when, for example, Russia does what it just did.