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I've started a UG in Germany. It is one of the worst professional experiences I've ever had. It's extremely cumbersome, bureaucracy heavy, slow and expensive.

I've started a UG in Germany. It is one of the worst professional experiences I've ever had. It's extremely cumbersome, bureaucracy heavy, slow and expensive. In addition I've never encountered as many scummy companies (GmbH or otherwise) as in Germany. Corporate rules and culture are both complete trash. For reference I've started companies in Sweden, and I can do the full process online in an afternoon. Probably less than 30 minutes. If I ever had to have a business for operating in Germany again, I would create an Estonian business. There's no reason that you corporate entity has to be German itself.

hef19898 4y ago
How did you do it? My UG was set up in two days, or three including the bank account, and cost, if memory serves well, 200 bucks ir so. Not the lowest anount because I do have a partner and we had some changes to the companies articles.
- robert_foss 4y ago
  Doing the notary/banking/incorporation/tax-agency dance took a while. But that's only one part of the process. The continuous level of bureaucracy is really high too, and during the years I ran my corporation it never seemed to diminish.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Like what? Notary and bank, sure, that's a requirement. Tax consultabt? Unless you want to do your own accounting you need one, easy enough to send invoices and bank statements once per month. Every company needs accountants to keep the books. I do it once per quarter now for the basically dead UG, it just exists as an empty shell for now. Regardless of jurisdiction, the bureaucracy will be there. Someone would want you to pay taxes after all.
    - robert_foss 4y ago
      Speaking of paying taxes, that's much harder than it needs to be too. I did my corporate Swedish taxes between sets at the gym (no exaggeration). Would reply below, but reached thread max depth. That tax advisor I got was really scummy and way over charged in addition to being an ongoing headache to deal with.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        See, that's why I never filed taxes in Germany in my live so far. Tax advisories are cheap ebough and so much better at doing it.
        konschubert 4y ago
        You’re talking about faster horses, while GP is trying to say that if the tax system is simple, you don’t need advisories AND it takes 5 mins.
Archelaos 4y ago
> If I ever had to have a business for operating in Germany again, I would create an Estonian business. There's no reason that you corporate entity has to be German itself. A lot of people in Germany founded a British Limited with a captial of 1 Euro. Then came Brexit ...
kpz 4y ago
Is it a possible for a solo founder in Germany to register an Estonian Business? I had the impression (althought i'm not sure about it and would happily be corrected) you would need to apply for e-residency and need a local contact person for bookkeeping + banking. With the yearly costs being higher than just going for a Gewerbe / UG + local (german) tax advisor. Would having a "foreign" company have any disadvantages comparing to a german company?
- hef19898 4y ago
  I investigated that, and if you din't live in Estonia you need to go there to finalize some paper work. You are still liable for taxes in Germany, as you are a tax resident. That alone makes you tax advisor more expensive, findibg one that knows his way aroubd German corporations is easy enough, that's bread and butter. International taxation is different, and thus nore expensive. In the end, Estonia is just not worth it IMHO. Also, most start-ups don't need to be registered as a Gewerbe anyway. And let's be honest, if a "start-up" fails to cope with business and bureaucracy requirements your Döner shop successfully tackles daily you might reconsider running a business in the first place.
  - kpz 4y ago
    Ah yes, then i would conclude that this is not a simple solution. Please correct me, but would a start-up don't need to be a Gewerbe / UG / Gbr / ... to have an entry in the Handelsregister? You can't just make up a "company" a filed it as "Einkommen aus Selbstständiger Arbeit" when doing your taxes, can you?
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Gou need a Handelsregister entry, that's what makes it a corporation. Depending on what you do you might or might not need a Gewerbe on top. Some businesses need one, e.g. car repair shops, others don't. eCommerce doesn't, software usually neither. Best to check with your notary or tax advisor, they know that stuff. If you need one, you take an appointment at your local administration and sign a piece of paper (from what I understand, I never needed one). Edit: Regarding your last point, yes, you can. Upside, it's simple. Downside, you are liable and carrying losses forward is tricky. Among other things.
wewxjfq 4y ago
> In addition I've never encountered as many scummy companies (GmbH or otherwise) as in Germany. Corporate rules and culture are both complete trash. That's the quintessential HN comment I'm talking about. Just hasty generalizations and accusations. Tiresome.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Anecdotally, I've also never encountered as many scummy and cheating companies and GmbHs as in Germany. Granted it's just another data point but I feel there's real substance behind this Germany bashing and it's not uncalled for. Also, Germany is the only EU country I've encountered where scummy law companies break citizens privacy hand in hand with ISPs to spy on your internet traffic and send you fines if you torrent anything copyrighted, while at the same time marking huge fuss about how important privacy is in Germany. Ironic. If you move to Germany make sure to get defense insurance to protect yourself if you ever need to use a lawyer.
  - wewxjfq 4y ago
    You are free to distrust GmbHs, I'm free to distrust HN comments. One is more warranted than the other.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      By all means, feel free to do that, I'm just some random guy or gal on HN. I'm just sharing my life experience.
  - codethief 4y ago
    > Anecdotally, I've also never encountered as many scummy and cheating companies and GmbHs as in Germany. Compared to where?
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands.

hef19898 4y ago

How did you do it? My UG was set up in two days, or three including the bank account, and cost, if memory serves well, 200 bucks ir so. Not the lowest anount because I do have a partner and we had some changes to the companies articles.

robert_foss 4y ago
Doing the notary/banking/incorporation/tax-agency dance took a while. But that's only one part of the process. The continuous level of bureaucracy is really high too, and during the years I ran my corporation it never seemed to diminish.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Like what? Notary and bank, sure, that's a requirement. Tax consultabt? Unless you want to do your own accounting you need one, easy enough to send invoices and bank statements once per month. Every company needs accountants to keep the books. I do it once per quarter now for the basically dead UG, it just exists as an empty shell for now. Regardless of jurisdiction, the bureaucracy will be there. Someone would want you to pay taxes after all.
  - robert_foss 4y ago
    Speaking of paying taxes, that's much harder than it needs to be too. I did my corporate Swedish taxes between sets at the gym (no exaggeration). Would reply below, but reached thread max depth. That tax advisor I got was really scummy and way over charged in addition to being an ongoing headache to deal with.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      See, that's why I never filed taxes in Germany in my live so far. Tax advisories are cheap ebough and so much better at doing it.
      - konschubert 4y ago
        You’re talking about faster horses, while GP is trying to say that if the tax system is simple, you don’t need advisories AND it takes 5 mins.

Archelaos 4y ago

> If I ever had to have a business for operating in Germany again, I would create an Estonian business. There's no reason that you corporate entity has to be German itself. A lot of people in Germany founded a British Limited with a captial of 1 Euro. Then came Brexit ...

kpz 4y ago

Is it a possible for a solo founder in Germany to register an Estonian Business? I had the impression (althought i'm not sure about it and would happily be corrected) you would need to apply for e-residency and need a local contact person for bookkeeping + banking. With the yearly costs being higher than just going for a Gewerbe / UG + local (german) tax advisor. Would having a "foreign" company have any disadvantages comparing to a german company?

hef19898 4y ago
I investigated that, and if you din't live in Estonia you need to go there to finalize some paper work. You are still liable for taxes in Germany, as you are a tax resident. That alone makes you tax advisor more expensive, findibg one that knows his way aroubd German corporations is easy enough, that's bread and butter. International taxation is different, and thus nore expensive. In the end, Estonia is just not worth it IMHO. Also, most start-ups don't need to be registered as a Gewerbe anyway. And let's be honest, if a "start-up" fails to cope with business and bureaucracy requirements your Döner shop successfully tackles daily you might reconsider running a business in the first place.
- kpz 4y ago
  Ah yes, then i would conclude that this is not a simple solution. Please correct me, but would a start-up don't need to be a Gewerbe / UG / Gbr / ... to have an entry in the Handelsregister? You can't just make up a "company" a filed it as "Einkommen aus Selbstständiger Arbeit" when doing your taxes, can you?
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Gou need a Handelsregister entry, that's what makes it a corporation. Depending on what you do you might or might not need a Gewerbe on top. Some businesses need one, e.g. car repair shops, others don't. eCommerce doesn't, software usually neither. Best to check with your notary or tax advisor, they know that stuff. If you need one, you take an appointment at your local administration and sign a piece of paper (from what I understand, I never needed one). Edit: Regarding your last point, yes, you can. Upside, it's simple. Downside, you are liable and carrying losses forward is tricky. Among other things.

wewxjfq 4y ago

> In addition I've never encountered as many scummy companies (GmbH or otherwise) as in Germany. Corporate rules and culture are both complete trash. That's the quintessential HN comment I'm talking about. Just hasty generalizations and accusations. Tiresome.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Anecdotally, I've also never encountered as many scummy and cheating companies and GmbHs as in Germany. Granted it's just another data point but I feel there's real substance behind this Germany bashing and it's not uncalled for. Also, Germany is the only EU country I've encountered where scummy law companies break citizens privacy hand in hand with ISPs to spy on your internet traffic and send you fines if you torrent anything copyrighted, while at the same time marking huge fuss about how important privacy is in Germany. Ironic. If you move to Germany make sure to get defense insurance to protect yourself if you ever need to use a lawyer.
- wewxjfq 4y ago
  You are free to distrust GmbHs, I'm free to distrust HN comments. One is more warranted than the other.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    By all means, feel free to do that, I'm just some random guy or gal on HN. I'm just sharing my life experience.
- codethief 4y ago
  > Anecdotally, I've also never encountered as many scummy and cheating companies and GmbHs as in Germany. Compared to where?
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands.