6 ms·

As a european, to me it seems more like our EU leaders are sanctioning us, the EU people, and not russia...

npc12345 4y ago
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  I know, but i'm just saying what the public is feeling right now here. Russia is still selling their oil to india and china, and europe is slowly destroying itself with the anti-russian sanctions and many other internal things they do. Germany went from one of the strongest economies in the world to telling their people to wear sweaters at home, because they'll be cold, while countries oposing the sanctions still have cheap gas (eg 1.23eur/l in hungary). Media is saying one thing, but people in the streets (and surprisingly, also in the comments everywhere, somehow not censored yet) complain and most not in the politically-correct way. Add to this the blatant censorship of media, eg banning RT in europe (let's be fair.. putin, being somewhat a dictator, banning CNN is perfectly understandable... but EU, "a pillar of democracy" banning RT, to me, seems a very very bad precedent), and stories like "evacuation of azovstal" (and not saying it was a "surrender") make people trust the media even less.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    The past few years have taught me that, in the age of social media, nothing so unequivocally bad can happen that people wouldn’t be blaming it on mainstream media. Dictator invades neighboring country, says their people don’t have a right to exist? The mainstream media is to blame for using a word I didn’t like. Dictator’s propaganda channel is removed from distribution? A conspiracy by the mainstream media and their political cronies. Etc. It does make it much easier to understand the Americans who in 1939 were saying “Hitler is not our problem — at least he’s not a communist — look at the good job he’s done cleaning up the radical left — the press is out to get him — why should we hurt our own economy by not trading with Germany?”
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      You're narrowmindedly cherry picking data. Before 2022, we were listening about ukranians shelling russian settlements in ukraine. Ukraine had a nazi problem, Azov was nazis, and even the mainstream media said it: https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg Now they're acting as if none of this has ever happened. On the other hand, we've let and activelly helped americans to the same thing to many, many different countries, lied about weapons of mass destruction, destroyed afghanistan for hiding obama in pakistan while bombing pakistani weddings while not being at war with them, plus of course syria, libya, etc. Now US troops are entering somalia. I live in a small EU country with a shitty almost non-existant army, and even we had soldiers in afghanistan (and still have them in eg. syria and lebanon). Yugoslavia was bombed for 78 days for doing the same as ukranians were doing to russian minorties, and civilian targets were intentionally chosen for the bombings. Yes, the mainstream media is guilty of saying one thing until day X, and changing their narrative from day X+1. > Dictator’s propaganda channel is removed from distribution? You are aware that all of the media is just propaganda? CNN is propaganda, BBC is propaganda, and RT is propaganda. If we didn't ban the news outlets saying that iraq has WMDs, why are we banning RT? If RT saying that ukranians are nazis, why are we not banning all the mainstream media outlets from here: https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg ? > It does make it much easier to understand the Americans who in 1939 were saying “Hitler is not our problem — at least he’s not a communist — look at the good job he’s done cleaning up the radical left — the press is out to get him — why should we hurt our own economy by not trading with Germany?” Lets be fair.. for most of the world, americans are the largest problem for peace in their area. Russians are at worst, second, depending on how you look at saudi arabia vs yemen and israel vs palestine conflicts.
      - grapeskin 4y ago
        This classic rears its head again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes The Nazi thing in Ukraine is just tired and old, especially since Russia has active ranks of Nazis (like the Wagner Group) that they send abroad. If the Nazi factions justify exterminating civilians in Ukraine, then for consistency's sake, the same could be said of extermination of Russians. (I support exterminating nobody) America is wrong to start wars. Most people (especially outside of America) agree with that. That doesn't mean Russia gets a free pass to actively threaten Europe and commit genocide, and no amount of paragraphs will change that.
  - burntoutfire 4y ago
    Some other terrible things are banned in the EU, not only RT. We don't have 100% freedom of speech, and for good measure. For example, child pornography is also illegal. As is glorification of Nazism and (in some countries) Communism.
  - xkcd1963 4y ago
    Yes that was a very confusing moment when I read on aljazeera the Ukranian gov. had evacuated 200 soldiers from Azovstal. Ah yeah, the Russians just let them go, while it was besieged and POV swaps were happening? Someday in the past, journalism must have been of quality.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      Guardian was even worse (just look at the photo): https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2022/may/17/evacuation-of-azovstal-plant-in-mariupol-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2022/may/17/evacua... :) This guy made an informative video about what happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwu5Gp8AFnk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwu5Gp8AFnk
  - xosset 4y ago
    The ultimate problem is oil and gas sanctions are useless when we are not doing anything ourselves to control the price. It is unconscionable we are not trying to increase supply in the US IN ORDER to harm Putin. I mean how do people not see that Putin is probably laughing at the idea of $120 oil meant to harm him. By not increasing US supply we are basically helping Putin and forcing other countries to burn more coal. It is just unconscionable but we tend to not really care in the US about actual results as long as the moral intentions are good.
- jessaustin 4y ago
  That isn't a good thing about HN.
- FpUser 4y ago
  The ministry of truth
ryan_j_naughton 4y ago
Sanctions have to hurt to be effective. Europe foolishly integrated with the Russian energy economy in the 80s. We are rightfully reversing course on that mistake, but doing so inherently involves substantial pain. But not willing to pay the price is a furtherance of Russia's power, control, and mass murder of Ukrainians.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  I'd prefer sanctions where it hurts them more than it hurts us. Especially, since the current ukranian conflict is no different than eg the war in afghanistan, syria, libya, and as putin says it, also kosovo/yugoslavia. Those were all the wars for US power, control and mass murder of all those people, and we silently supported all those wars, even sent our own soldiers to fight there.
  - Wyoming23 4y ago
    This is ridiculous. The wars are incredibly different in literally every way. Every war has horrible tragedies and innocent lives lost or harmed, but to suggest invading a stable democracy to annex it is even remotely the same as supporting a locally led uprising against a murderous dictator like in Syria is absurd and offensive.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      - synu 4y ago
        You can find embarrassing far right extremists and parties in every country these days. Ukraine is hardly a new nazi Germany.
        ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        How many of those far right groups were integrated into national armies, as Azov was?
JohnGB 4y ago
I see you follow the Chamberlain method of giving Russia whatever it wants because it won't possibly ever come back to affect you...
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  Was there ever a European Chamberlain type character?
  - glogla 4y ago
    Merkel, Scholz, Macron?
  - yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
    Macron?
908B64B197 4y ago
That's completely self-inflicted indeed. Europe spent decades of cooperation with Russia instead of working toward complete independence from Russian energy.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  I mean... germany also spent decades to kill of it's nuclear energy production. So it's not the only thing our (EU) politicians fucked up but will never take the blame for.
- d0mine 4y ago
  The economy is global. If you like independence look at Cuba--it is "independent" for decades now. Thanks to sanctions, Russia is becoming independent (less/no ties to outside economies)--do not recommend.
  - maleldil 4y ago
    Being independent doesn't work, but you should strive to become dependent only on parties that can be expected to be reasonably rational. A democratic country is expected to be more rational than an autocratic one. The EU was naive in trusting Russia.
    - d0mine 4y ago
      There are many naive people. Try to look at relative military spending around the world and think about trust, about where all these weapons will be applied eventually.
    - 908B64B197 4y ago
      In the 70's France went all-in on clean, green nuclear energy when they realized they had an outsized strategic dependency on foreign oil coming from unstable regimes. America did the same in the 2000's and ramped-up domestic supply of oil.
    - d0mine 4y ago
      Talking with peoples who believe they live in a democracy reminds me of talking with religious people: they think if you don't believe in their god, than it means you are evil immoral person. Rational arguments (facts, evidence) do not work.
joyeuse6701 4y ago
If you actually think so, then have you considered moving to Russia yet?

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
I know, but i'm just saying what the public is feeling right now here. Russia is still selling their oil to india and china, and europe is slowly destroying itself with the anti-russian sanctions and many other internal things they do. Germany went from one of the strongest economies in the world to telling their people to wear sweaters at home, because they'll be cold, while countries oposing the sanctions still have cheap gas (eg 1.23eur/l in hungary). Media is saying one thing, but people in the streets (and surprisingly, also in the comments everywhere, somehow not censored yet) complain and most not in the politically-correct way. Add to this the blatant censorship of media, eg banning RT in europe (let's be fair.. putin, being somewhat a dictator, banning CNN is perfectly understandable... but EU, "a pillar of democracy" banning RT, to me, seems a very very bad precedent), and stories like "evacuation of azovstal" (and not saying it was a "surrender") make people trust the media even less.
- pavlov 4y ago
  The past few years have taught me that, in the age of social media, nothing so unequivocally bad can happen that people wouldn’t be blaming it on mainstream media. Dictator invades neighboring country, says their people don’t have a right to exist? The mainstream media is to blame for using a word I didn’t like. Dictator’s propaganda channel is removed from distribution? A conspiracy by the mainstream media and their political cronies. Etc. It does make it much easier to understand the Americans who in 1939 were saying “Hitler is not our problem — at least he’s not a communist — look at the good job he’s done cleaning up the radical left — the press is out to get him — why should we hurt our own economy by not trading with Germany?”
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    You're narrowmindedly cherry picking data. Before 2022, we were listening about ukranians shelling russian settlements in ukraine. Ukraine had a nazi problem, Azov was nazis, and even the mainstream media said it: https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg Now they're acting as if none of this has ever happened. On the other hand, we've let and activelly helped americans to the same thing to many, many different countries, lied about weapons of mass destruction, destroyed afghanistan for hiding obama in pakistan while bombing pakistani weddings while not being at war with them, plus of course syria, libya, etc. Now US troops are entering somalia. I live in a small EU country with a shitty almost non-existant army, and even we had soldiers in afghanistan (and still have them in eg. syria and lebanon). Yugoslavia was bombed for 78 days for doing the same as ukranians were doing to russian minorties, and civilian targets were intentionally chosen for the bombings. Yes, the mainstream media is guilty of saying one thing until day X, and changing their narrative from day X+1. > Dictator’s propaganda channel is removed from distribution? You are aware that all of the media is just propaganda? CNN is propaganda, BBC is propaganda, and RT is propaganda. If we didn't ban the news outlets saying that iraq has WMDs, why are we banning RT? If RT saying that ukranians are nazis, why are we not banning all the mainstream media outlets from here: https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg ? > It does make it much easier to understand the Americans who in 1939 were saying “Hitler is not our problem — at least he’s not a communist — look at the good job he’s done cleaning up the radical left — the press is out to get him — why should we hurt our own economy by not trading with Germany?” Lets be fair.. for most of the world, americans are the largest problem for peace in their area. Russians are at worst, second, depending on how you look at saudi arabia vs yemen and israel vs palestine conflicts.
    - grapeskin 4y ago
      This classic rears its head again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes The Nazi thing in Ukraine is just tired and old, especially since Russia has active ranks of Nazis (like the Wagner Group) that they send abroad. If the Nazi factions justify exterminating civilians in Ukraine, then for consistency's sake, the same could be said of extermination of Russians. (I support exterminating nobody) America is wrong to start wars. Most people (especially outside of America) agree with that. That doesn't mean Russia gets a free pass to actively threaten Europe and commit genocide, and no amount of paragraphs will change that.
- burntoutfire 4y ago
  Some other terrible things are banned in the EU, not only RT. We don't have 100% freedom of speech, and for good measure. For example, child pornography is also illegal. As is glorification of Nazism and (in some countries) Communism.
- xkcd1963 4y ago
  Yes that was a very confusing moment when I read on aljazeera the Ukranian gov. had evacuated 200 soldiers from Azovstal. Ah yeah, the Russians just let them go, while it was besieged and POV swaps were happening? Someday in the past, journalism must have been of quality.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Guardian was even worse (just look at the photo): https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2022/may/17/evacuation-of-azovstal-plant-in-mariupol-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2022/may/17/evacua... :) This guy made an informative video about what happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwu5Gp8AFnk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwu5Gp8AFnk
- xosset 4y ago
  The ultimate problem is oil and gas sanctions are useless when we are not doing anything ourselves to control the price. It is unconscionable we are not trying to increase supply in the US IN ORDER to harm Putin. I mean how do people not see that Putin is probably laughing at the idea of $120 oil meant to harm him. By not increasing US supply we are basically helping Putin and forcing other countries to burn more coal. It is just unconscionable but we tend to not really care in the US about actual results as long as the moral intentions are good.
jessaustin 4y ago
That isn't a good thing about HN.
FpUser 4y ago
The ministry of truth

Sanctions have to hurt to be effective. Europe foolishly integrated with the Russian energy economy in the 80s. We are rightfully reversing course on that mistake, but doing so inherently involves substantial pain. But not willing to pay the price is a furtherance of Russia's power, control, and mass murder of Ukrainians.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
I'd prefer sanctions where it hurts them more than it hurts us. Especially, since the current ukranian conflict is no different than eg the war in afghanistan, syria, libya, and as putin says it, also kosovo/yugoslavia. Those were all the wars for US power, control and mass murder of all those people, and we silently supported all those wars, even sent our own soldiers to fight there.
- Wyoming23 4y ago
  This is ridiculous. The wars are incredibly different in literally every way. Every war has horrible tragedies and innocent lives lost or harmed, but to suggest invading a stable democracy to annex it is even remotely the same as supporting a locally led uprising against a murderous dictator like in Syria is absurd and offensive.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    - synu 4y ago
      You can find embarrassing far right extremists and parties in every country these days. Ukraine is hardly a new nazi Germany.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        How many of those far right groups were integrated into national armies, as Azov was?

JohnGB 4y ago

I see you follow the Chamberlain method of giving Russia whatever it wants because it won't possibly ever come back to affect you...

cuteboy19 4y ago
Was there ever a European Chamberlain type character?
- glogla 4y ago
  Merkel, Scholz, Macron?
- yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
  Macron?

908B64B197 4y ago

That's completely self-inflicted indeed. Europe spent decades of cooperation with Russia instead of working toward complete independence from Russian energy.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
I mean... germany also spent decades to kill of it's nuclear energy production. So it's not the only thing our (EU) politicians fucked up but will never take the blame for.
d0mine 4y ago
The economy is global. If you like independence look at Cuba--it is "independent" for decades now. Thanks to sanctions, Russia is becoming independent (less/no ties to outside economies)--do not recommend.
- maleldil 4y ago
  Being independent doesn't work, but you should strive to become dependent only on parties that can be expected to be reasonably rational. A democratic country is expected to be more rational than an autocratic one. The EU was naive in trusting Russia.
  - d0mine 4y ago
    There are many naive people. Try to look at relative military spending around the world and think about trust, about where all these weapons will be applied eventually.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    In the 70's France went all-in on clean, green nuclear energy when they realized they had an outsized strategic dependency on foreign oil coming from unstable regimes. America did the same in the 2000's and ramped-up domestic supply of oil.
  - d0mine 4y ago
    Talking with peoples who believe they live in a democracy reminds me of talking with religious people: they think if you don't believe in their god, than it means you are evil immoral person. Rational arguments (facts, evidence) do not work.

joyeuse6701 4y ago

If you actually think so, then have you considered moving to Russia yet?