4 ms·

And in Germany, it’s literally a crime to have certain opinions and discuss them. Edit: downvote away, but this is literally true.

bayesian_horse 4y ago
It's literally wrong. You can have any opinion you want, but yes, there are certain, very much contradicted "opinions" you can get in trouble for publicly announcing. But even that has certain limits. For example you can deny the Holocaust among a small circle of friends, and that would not be "public". And it's extremely hard to get anything of the sort prosecuted on the internet. See "tatütata.fail".
nonstickcoating 4y ago
This is not correct at all. You are perfectly entitled to be a fascist in your own four walls, even discuss your fascist ideals with your friends. You can not, however, advocate for fascism in public or use insignias or texts of the NSDAP for anything but educational purposes. EDIT: The comment below phrases it even better.
- patrec 4y ago
  > This is not correct at all. A quick glance at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial suggests that you may have made up the public advocacy requirement: > (3) Whosoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of International Criminal Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine.[36][37] Of course the distinction you are trying to draw smacks of sophistry to begin with. From what I can tell, you can be anti-islamic in your own four walls and even discuss your secular ideals with your friends in Pakistan, beacon of free speech, as well[1]. [1] As long as you don't defile the name of a prophet. That seems to carry a mandatory death sentence (plus fine, to really rub it in), even if it occurs within your own walls.
  - nonstickcoating 4y ago
    The wording might be off, but public advocacy is basically what is meant by "in a manner to disturb the public peace". This does not include discussing facsim in your home, but does include you not being able to hang a NSDAP-flag from your window. I wonder why so many free-speech advocates are hell-bent on enabling fascists to spread their propaganda. They are certainly not the first but not the last group they will drag to their camps or shoot. To compare this kind of law to fundamentalist religious law is a special kind of ignorant.
    - patrec 4y ago
      > I wonder why so many free-speech advocates are hell-bent on enabling fascists to spread their propaganda. Do you also wonder why so many cryptography advocates are hell-bent on enabling not just fascists but also pedophiles and terrorists to plan and commit their crimes or are your difficulties of comprehension more selective? > To compare this kind of law to fundamentalist religious law is a special kind of ignorant. Pakistan (unlike, say, Saudi Arabia) has constitutionally enshrined freedom of expression. Can you point to some fundamental difference that makes the restrictions Pakistan places on this right incomparable to those Germany places on it?
bruce343434 4y ago
Which opinions?
robonerd 4y ago
[You're technically wrong, now let me explain the ways in which you're basically correct.]
dabber21 4y ago
like?
- boruto 4y ago
  Cannot say about opinions, but giving a birdie even online is a misdimeanor and expensive affair. Cursing someone or insulting someone online (calling an idiot) you can end up in jail for 2 years.
dahart 4y ago
Depends on what you mean by “discuss them”, maybe you can elaborate on what you’re referring to and under what circumstances. I don’t think there’s any country on earth that has absolute freedom of speech. Certain things are illegal to say for good reasons, because they can do real harm to other people.
- boruto 4y ago
  I am not the GP, but if you cuss someone online, like saying bad words (not racist) just the f-word, you could end up in jail. I am not supporting that kind of law or anything as I have no skin in the game :).
  - dahart 4y ago
    Like the US, Germany has free speech protections, and ranks well globally in terms of journalistic protection (https://rsf.org/en/index https://rsf.org/en/index better than the US), but yes it looks like there is a long list of exceptions there too. The restrictions do perhaps look a little more restrictive than the US, but of course it’s always hard to say. Most free speech restrictions have hard fought and won case law behind them. You’re right; in Germany, insult is illegal. I’m reading about it, and articles say that the majority of minor insults are not reported, and that generally insult claims are dismissed (for example https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-insult-law-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-insult-la...) Nazism and Holocaust denial are also illegal, and for pretty good reasons. Since the OP’s comment didn’t mention insulting people, but simply having opinions and discussing them, perhaps this is what they’re referring to? That might be the only subject that is taboo without qualification, the rest of them (such as blasphemy) appear to hinge on whether it could affect the safety of people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany#Main_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Repu... The US has similar restrictions, most of them for similar reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...
    - boruto 4y ago
that_guy_iain 4y ago
And yet it's verision of freedom of speech is in my opinion still stronger than the US. In Germany, there is Meinungfreiheit, which is freedom of opinion. This freedom cannot override others rights tho. So your right to an opinion may not infringe on someone else. For example, you can't insult others in a way that dehumanes them. However, you can insult people just not in a way that dehumanes them. A German court found an employer couldn't fire an employee just because they called them an autistic asshole in a text message. The employee was entitled to his opinion that the employer was an autistic asshole. It did not dehuman the employer because it was done privately and did not interfer with the operation of the business. So in Germany, private companies are not allowed to breach your rights, unlike in the US where it only applies to the goverment.

bayesian_horse 4y ago

It's literally wrong. You can have any opinion you want, but yes, there are certain, very much contradicted "opinions" you can get in trouble for publicly announcing. But even that has certain limits. For example you can deny the Holocaust among a small circle of friends, and that would not be "public". And it's extremely hard to get anything of the sort prosecuted on the internet. See "tatütata.fail".

nonstickcoating 4y ago

This is not correct at all. You are perfectly entitled to be a fascist in your own four walls, even discuss your fascist ideals with your friends. You can not, however, advocate for fascism in public or use insignias or texts of the NSDAP for anything but educational purposes. EDIT: The comment below phrases it even better.

patrec 4y ago
> This is not correct at all. A quick glance at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial suggests that you may have made up the public advocacy requirement: > (3) Whosoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of International Criminal Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine.[36][37] Of course the distinction you are trying to draw smacks of sophistry to begin with. From what I can tell, you can be anti-islamic in your own four walls and even discuss your secular ideals with your friends in Pakistan, beacon of free speech, as well[1]. [1] As long as you don't defile the name of a prophet. That seems to carry a mandatory death sentence (plus fine, to really rub it in), even if it occurs within your own walls.
- nonstickcoating 4y ago
  The wording might be off, but public advocacy is basically what is meant by "in a manner to disturb the public peace". This does not include discussing facsim in your home, but does include you not being able to hang a NSDAP-flag from your window. I wonder why so many free-speech advocates are hell-bent on enabling fascists to spread their propaganda. They are certainly not the first but not the last group they will drag to their camps or shoot. To compare this kind of law to fundamentalist religious law is a special kind of ignorant.
  - patrec 4y ago
    > I wonder why so many free-speech advocates are hell-bent on enabling fascists to spread their propaganda. Do you also wonder why so many cryptography advocates are hell-bent on enabling not just fascists but also pedophiles and terrorists to plan and commit their crimes or are your difficulties of comprehension more selective? > To compare this kind of law to fundamentalist religious law is a special kind of ignorant. Pakistan (unlike, say, Saudi Arabia) has constitutionally enshrined freedom of expression. Can you point to some fundamental difference that makes the restrictions Pakistan places on this right incomparable to those Germany places on it?

bruce343434 4y ago

Which opinions?

robonerd 4y ago

[You're technically wrong, now let me explain the ways in which you're basically correct.]

dabber21 4y ago

like?

boruto 4y ago
Cannot say about opinions, but giving a birdie even online is a misdimeanor and expensive affair. Cursing someone or insulting someone online (calling an idiot) you can end up in jail for 2 years.

dahart 4y ago

Depends on what you mean by “discuss them”, maybe you can elaborate on what you’re referring to and under what circumstances. I don’t think there’s any country on earth that has absolute freedom of speech. Certain things are illegal to say for good reasons, because they can do real harm to other people.

boruto 4y ago
I am not the GP, but if you cuss someone online, like saying bad words (not racist) just the f-word, you could end up in jail. I am not supporting that kind of law or anything as I have no skin in the game :).
- dahart 4y ago
  Like the US, Germany has free speech protections, and ranks well globally in terms of journalistic protection (https://rsf.org/en/index https://rsf.org/en/index better than the US), but yes it looks like there is a long list of exceptions there too. The restrictions do perhaps look a little more restrictive than the US, but of course it’s always hard to say. Most free speech restrictions have hard fought and won case law behind them. You’re right; in Germany, insult is illegal. I’m reading about it, and articles say that the majority of minor insults are not reported, and that generally insult claims are dismissed (for example https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-insult-law-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-insult-la...) Nazism and Holocaust denial are also illegal, and for pretty good reasons. Since the OP’s comment didn’t mention insulting people, but simply having opinions and discussing them, perhaps this is what they’re referring to? That might be the only subject that is taboo without qualification, the rest of them (such as blasphemy) appear to hinge on whether it could affect the safety of people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany#Main_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Repu... The US has similar restrictions, most of them for similar reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...
  - boruto 4y ago

that_guy_iain 4y ago

And yet it's verision of freedom of speech is in my opinion still stronger than the US. In Germany, there is Meinungfreiheit, which is freedom of opinion. This freedom cannot override others rights tho. So your right to an opinion may not infringe on someone else. For example, you can't insult others in a way that dehumanes them. However, you can insult people just not in a way that dehumanes them. A German court found an employer couldn't fire an employee just because they called them an autistic asshole in a text message. The employee was entitled to his opinion that the employer was an autistic asshole. It did not dehuman the employer because it was done privately and did not interfer with the operation of the business. So in Germany, private companies are not allowed to breach your rights, unlike in the US where it only applies to the goverment.