5 ms·

One thing I have observed, particularly with Africans, is that if they grow up in Europe or if they grow up in Africa, there is a clear difference in the way th

One thing I have observed, particularly with Africans, is that if they grow up in Europe or if they grow up in Africa, there is a clear difference in the way they look when they are older, no matter their socio-economic status at that point.

david927 15y ago
Have you seen the same effects on Africans that grew up wealthy in Africa, versus those that grew up in poor living conditions in Europe?
- maxklein 15y ago
  It can also be seen, but to a different extent. An african that grows up in a city in a wealthy household seems to end up with a different sort of facial structure and skin than those who grow up in rural areas...and it never goes. However, the effect is far more pronounced among those who grow up abroad. You can see this clearly in london - it's pretty easy to observe which Africans migrated to England at perhaps age 10, vs those who were born and grew up in England.
  - wisty 15y ago
    It could just be the signs of malnutrition. 200 years ago there was about 1 foot difference between English nobles and Welch coal miners, because the nobles were better fed as children. It would probably show in a different facial structure too.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - nodata 15y ago
    > it's pretty easy to observe What do I have to look for? How have you validated your observations? Got any examples?
    - maxklein 15y ago
      I'm not sure exactly what you look for, but you can ask most Africans and they will recognize the difference. Look at this link for example: http://www.traedays.com/blog/2006/06/are-you-thinking-what-im-thinking-character-and-speech/ http://www.traedays.com/blog/2006/06/are-you-thinking-what-i...
  - david927 15y ago
    That's absolutely fascinating. I would be very interested to learn more.
  - abhikshah 15y ago
    I would guess that any observed differences are from lifestyle (food type, amount of sun, exercise, beauty products, hair styles) rather than epigenetic differences. I haven't seen any papers where the phenotype of epigenetic changes is as clearly observable as "facial structure and skin".
IsaacL 15y ago
When I lived it HK I noticed it was generally very easy to tell locals from mainland Chinese from ABCs from internationally-schooled locals. I think I've noticed the same thing with people of African descent - however, in both cases I thought it was more to do with subtle differences in mannerisms and dress than in the way they actually look.
- barrkel 15y ago
  ABC means American born Chinese, in case you were wondering, like me.
athesyn 15y ago
I think you are confusing African ethnicities (since only using the word Africans is quite superfluous anyway). Africa is the most diverse continent in terms of phenotype and genetics. For example: a West African, an Ethiopian and a San person have very little in common, physically speaking. It is a bit like saying African Americans are 'African' while most have admixtures with non-Africans. Studies showed that Ethiopians (toward 50-55%) and Kushites (towards 35% for Bejas) have an important western asian input so they tend to look like transitional people.
- maxklein 15y ago
  I'm not confusing African ethnicities. I mean people from the same extended family, living in london. Take a look at this link: http://www.traedays.com/blog/2006/06/are-you-thinking-what-im-thinking-character-and-speech/ http://www.traedays.com/blog/2006/06/are-you-thinking-what-i...
  - athesyn 15y ago
    All of them look very Nigerian to my eyes. Maybe if that blogger looked past his own cultural bias, he would notice there is variation amongst themselves.
    - tokenadult 15y ago
      It's not clear without further scientifically designed testing whether there is more "cultural bias" in grouping people by saying "All of them look very Nigerian to my eyes" or by saying that it is easy to see which of the varied individuals grow up in the West and which grew up in Nigeria. (It's an empirical question, first of all, whether observer identifications of that kind can be verified by controlled experiments with unfamiliar individuals in either case.) There are definitely different cultural biases among human beings about whether environment of development matters most or ancestral lineage group matters most in making distinct human individuals more or less alike for the social purpose of grouping them by some commonality. One refreshingly interesting fact I learned from the book The History of White People by Nell Irvin Painter http://www.amazon.com/History-White-People-Irvin-Painter/dp/0393049345 http://www.amazon.com/History-White-People-Irvin-Painter/dp/... is that the ancient Greek authors were overwhelmingly of the opinion that what made different people groups different from one another was different living environments (climate and topography), with the Greeks of course thinking that their living environment tended to produce superior people.
brudgers 15y ago
I notice distinct differences between my cousins who grew up in Brooklyn and those who grew up in New Orleans.
tokenadult 15y ago
Differences in early childhood diet (and also in patterns of early childhood exercise and sunlight exposure) bring about substantial differences in appearance among cousins or even siblings in the same family lineage among persons of recent east Asian genetic heritage too. I can observe some of those differences in my own extended family. I have seen many other examples over the years of "Asian" people having different growth patterns depending on whether they spent early childhood in Taiwan or in the United States.

david927 15y ago

Have you seen the same effects on Africans that grew up wealthy in Africa, versus those that grew up in poor living conditions in Europe?

maxklein 15y ago
It can also be seen, but to a different extent. An african that grows up in a city in a wealthy household seems to end up with a different sort of facial structure and skin than those who grow up in rural areas...and it never goes. However, the effect is far more pronounced among those who grow up abroad. You can see this clearly in london - it's pretty easy to observe which Africans migrated to England at perhaps age 10, vs those who were born and grew up in England.
- wisty 15y ago
  It could just be the signs of malnutrition. 200 years ago there was about 1 foot difference between English nobles and Welch coal miners, because the nobles were better fed as children. It would probably show in a different facial structure too.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- nodata 15y ago
  > it's pretty easy to observe What do I have to look for? How have you validated your observations? Got any examples?
  - maxklein 15y ago
    I'm not sure exactly what you look for, but you can ask most Africans and they will recognize the difference. Look at this link for example: http://www.traedays.com/blog/2006/06/are-you-thinking-what-im-thinking-character-and-speech/ http://www.traedays.com/blog/2006/06/are-you-thinking-what-i...
- david927 15y ago
  That's absolutely fascinating. I would be very interested to learn more.
- abhikshah 15y ago
  I would guess that any observed differences are from lifestyle (food type, amount of sun, exercise, beauty products, hair styles) rather than epigenetic differences. I haven't seen any papers where the phenotype of epigenetic changes is as clearly observable as "facial structure and skin".

IsaacL 15y ago

When I lived it HK I noticed it was generally very easy to tell locals from mainland Chinese from ABCs from internationally-schooled locals. I think I've noticed the same thing with people of African descent - however, in both cases I thought it was more to do with subtle differences in mannerisms and dress than in the way they actually look.

barrkel 15y ago
ABC means American born Chinese, in case you were wondering, like me.

athesyn 15y ago

I think you are confusing African ethnicities (since only using the word Africans is quite superfluous anyway). Africa is the most diverse continent in terms of phenotype and genetics. For example: a West African, an Ethiopian and a San person have very little in common, physically speaking. It is a bit like saying African Americans are 'African' while most have admixtures with non-Africans. Studies showed that Ethiopians (toward 50-55%) and Kushites (towards 35% for Bejas) have an important western asian input so they tend to look like transitional people.

maxklein 15y ago
I'm not confusing African ethnicities. I mean people from the same extended family, living in london. Take a look at this link: http://www.traedays.com/blog/2006/06/are-you-thinking-what-im-thinking-character-and-speech/ http://www.traedays.com/blog/2006/06/are-you-thinking-what-i...
- athesyn 15y ago
  All of them look very Nigerian to my eyes. Maybe if that blogger looked past his own cultural bias, he would notice there is variation amongst themselves.
  - tokenadult 15y ago
    It's not clear without further scientifically designed testing whether there is more "cultural bias" in grouping people by saying "All of them look very Nigerian to my eyes" or by saying that it is easy to see which of the varied individuals grow up in the West and which grew up in Nigeria. (It's an empirical question, first of all, whether observer identifications of that kind can be verified by controlled experiments with unfamiliar individuals in either case.) There are definitely different cultural biases among human beings about whether environment of development matters most or ancestral lineage group matters most in making distinct human individuals more or less alike for the social purpose of grouping them by some commonality. One refreshingly interesting fact I learned from the book The History of White People by Nell Irvin Painter http://www.amazon.com/History-White-People-Irvin-Painter/dp/0393049345 http://www.amazon.com/History-White-People-Irvin-Painter/dp/... is that the ancient Greek authors were overwhelmingly of the opinion that what made different people groups different from one another was different living environments (climate and topography), with the Greeks of course thinking that their living environment tended to produce superior people.

brudgers 15y ago

I notice distinct differences between my cousins who grew up in Brooklyn and those who grew up in New Orleans.

tokenadult 15y ago

Differences in early childhood diet (and also in patterns of early childhood exercise and sunlight exposure) bring about substantial differences in appearance among cousins or even siblings in the same family lineage among persons of recent east Asian genetic heritage too. I can observe some of those differences in my own extended family. I have seen many other examples over the years of "Asian" people having different growth patterns depending on whether they spent early childhood in Taiwan or in the United States.