4 ms·

I've lived in China longer than you and disagree. As a general rule: Anyone who speaks for hundreds of millions of people is either a demagogue or simply stere

I've lived in China longer than you and disagree. As a general rule: Anyone who speaks for hundreds of millions of people is either a demagogue or simply stereotyping. With the way things are at this point, you can't even know what Chinese people really think without being very close friends with them. Under Hu when the internet still wasn't as insanely censored, public opinion online was largely negative of the party and in the general population including older folks I'd guesstimate somewhere around 50/50. Keep in mind that was right at the height of the economic boom, so finance wise people couldn't have been more happy. But like OP says, no one wants to be unfree. The assumption that people in certain parts of the world are more predisposed to support totalitarianism strikes me as (unconsciously) racist.

olalonde 4y ago
I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm just relating my own experience from talking with hundreds of Chinese people over the years including my wife, her family members, my friends, etc. A pretty large sample overall. This research seems to mirror my experience: https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7... > The assumption that people in certain parts of the world are more predisposed to support totalitarianism strikes me as (unconsciously) racist. Oh boy...
- trompetenaccoun 4y ago
  Xi's China is a totalitarian state. Your anecdotal evidence of "speaking to hundreds of people" means nothing. I've been to North Korea and everyone told me they lover their dear leader. That clearly proves North Koreans are happy with their leadership by your logic. In fact, I don't think you'll find any totalitarian state where people aren't satisfied. Ergo totalitarianism is great.
  - olalonde 4y ago
    I've linked to serious research that matches my anecdotal evidence. I disagree that level of support or satisfaction indicates that a political system is superior to another. It's possible to be satisfied for many reasons including not knowing better, apathy, brainwashing, etc. As a fellow "anti-authoritarian", I believe you are doing yourself a disservice by dismissing those facts. For change to become more likely, you first have to win the hearts and minds of the people.
    - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
      Just think about this logically. Why does CCP run the largest censorship operation in the world? Why does a student get arrest and torutured for splashing ink on a Xi poster? Why do people get visited by the police for sharing a meme on Wechat? In the US we know that most people do not agree with the government and even there they don't resort to such extreme measures. I have a hard time believing someone has lived in China for 10 years, has a Chinese wife and is still that naive when it comes to dictatorships. Not even the party member I know believe this.
dirtyid 4y ago
And generally PRC citizens don't believe they're living under totalitarianism either. Most drank the koolaid that CCP is whole process democracy that kind of works, and democratic perception index or other surveys consistently reinforce this notion. Sometimes groups of people simply don't see the virtue or recognize charade of multi party indirect elections that allows any incompetent candidate to run. Expanding on "real thoughts", reoccuring theme is PRC diasphora in "democractic" countries with "free elections" are not particularly impressed by what they see in terms of state capcity versus PRC system. Nor the millions of PRC citizens that travel abroad to these countries and returns to China freely. Sure, no one wants to be unfree, but majority prioritize things like wealth or security while actual freedoms have also dramatically increased since the 90s - even accounting for Xi's rollbacks. People bitching about politics online is like par for the course for any system, the very fact that people can bitch including IRL about politics is sign of how free PRC has gotten vs pre 90s. Granted it's lowkey like it's always been, including under Hu. Reality is for most people from develping countries, which PRC still straddles, "freedom" is fine, but other things are finer and worth putting up with autocracy for.

olalonde 4y ago

I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm just relating my own experience from talking with hundreds of Chinese people over the years including my wife, her family members, my friends, etc. A pretty large sample overall. This research seems to mirror my experience: https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7... > The assumption that people in certain parts of the world are more predisposed to support totalitarianism strikes me as (unconsciously) racist. Oh boy...

trompetenaccoun 4y ago
Xi's China is a totalitarian state. Your anecdotal evidence of "speaking to hundreds of people" means nothing. I've been to North Korea and everyone told me they lover their dear leader. That clearly proves North Koreans are happy with their leadership by your logic. In fact, I don't think you'll find any totalitarian state where people aren't satisfied. Ergo totalitarianism is great.
- olalonde 4y ago
  I've linked to serious research that matches my anecdotal evidence. I disagree that level of support or satisfaction indicates that a political system is superior to another. It's possible to be satisfied for many reasons including not knowing better, apathy, brainwashing, etc. As a fellow "anti-authoritarian", I believe you are doing yourself a disservice by dismissing those facts. For change to become more likely, you first have to win the hearts and minds of the people.
  - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
    Just think about this logically. Why does CCP run the largest censorship operation in the world? Why does a student get arrest and torutured for splashing ink on a Xi poster? Why do people get visited by the police for sharing a meme on Wechat? In the US we know that most people do not agree with the government and even there they don't resort to such extreme measures. I have a hard time believing someone has lived in China for 10 years, has a Chinese wife and is still that naive when it comes to dictatorships. Not even the party member I know believe this.

dirtyid 4y ago

And generally PRC citizens don't believe they're living under totalitarianism either. Most drank the koolaid that CCP is whole process democracy that kind of works, and democratic perception index or other surveys consistently reinforce this notion. Sometimes groups of people simply don't see the virtue or recognize charade of multi party indirect elections that allows any incompetent candidate to run. Expanding on "real thoughts", reoccuring theme is PRC diasphora in "democractic" countries with "free elections" are not particularly impressed by what they see in terms of state capcity versus PRC system. Nor the millions of PRC citizens that travel abroad to these countries and returns to China freely. Sure, no one wants to be unfree, but majority prioritize things like wealth or security while actual freedoms have also dramatically increased since the 90s - even accounting for Xi's rollbacks. People bitching about politics online is like par for the course for any system, the very fact that people can bitch including IRL about politics is sign of how free PRC has gotten vs pre 90s. Granted it's lowkey like it's always been, including under Hu. Reality is for most people from develping countries, which PRC still straddles, "freedom" is fine, but other things are finer and worth putting up with autocracy for.