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Enjoyment of music linked to a specific physical item seems incredibly shallow to me. If the music is worth listening to, the medium shouldn't matter at all.

objclxt 4y ago
> Enjoyment of music linked to a specific physical item seems incredibly shallow to me. To a certain extent, but across the arts there's always artists that want to play with the format, so a changing of format can result in something being re-contextualised. For example, you can have [multisided vinyl][1] with hidden tracks, or loop a track onto itself so the record plays forever (like Sergeant Pepper). Neither are really possible with MP3 (there's a Brian Eno record that does both (the track bifurcates and loops at them end), so you get a random sample looping at the end of the LP). I am not saying this means the enjoyment of the music is lessened when you listen to it digitally - just that plenty of artists have written and produced pieces with the physical format at the front of their minds. [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisided_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisided_record
- sqlacid 4y ago
  I'll never forget discovering the third track of Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief, thought I'd lost my mind. As an Eno fan I'm not familiar with the mentioned album. King Crimson would put hidden messages printed in the vinyl inner track, I remember seeing "The next step is Discipline", which was their next album. I also miss the thriving bootleg community, picture discs.
- alexvoda 4y ago
  I see no reason why all of that could not be done in software. Same as DVD menus. For the record, VLC supports DVD menus and the Matroska container format (mkv, mka, mks, and the basis for webm) supports all of the features imagined so far. I believe the demand for the content far outweighed the demand for the presentation layer. All of these forms of interactivity however didn't prove popular in the digital world. Think of DVD's again. How often would you have ripped a DVD into a 4 or 8 GiB ISO in order to preserve the full experience and how often would you have rather ripped just the video file ~400 MiB, reencoded using a modern codec. Netflix optimises for the latter. If you allow for programability, all features of music albums and more can be recreated. What people want is no fuss instant access to the popular music of the moment therefore we have streaming services with good enough quality for most people and vast enough but incomplete collections of music. All while navigating the maze of licensing internationally. How many listeners do you believe would rather open Spotify/iTunes/WinAmp and press play to hear music and how many would rather navigate a album specific experience. If experience is so important, it can still be done in the streaming focused world of today (without standardised formats like Matroska). Just package it as an app (native or web), publish it on the app stores and let the app store take a 30% cut. Apps do not appear to be a popular format for music albums or for movies, even though they were attempted.
AlecSchueler 4y ago
Why should the medium not matter? I actually feel that's the shallow take Quite often, historically, music comes as part of a complete experiential package. Gatherings around fire, singing and dancing in groups, celebrating life's milestones, getting dressed up for concerts, excitement at buying tickets, journeying in and out of the city to pick up new recordings. All of those things are valid aspects of musical culture for me. Stripping the meta musical aspects from the musical experience is inherently lossy and in some ways diminishes the full spectrum of what music can be. This is especially true for music that was created outside of and/or before the streaming milieu.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cortesoft 4y ago
  Weren’t those things stripped from music when we invented recording?
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    Some things were lost, yes, and some things were gained. My list included both types of things. Some things are lost again with the move to streaming and, again, some things are lost. I was uncomfortable with the idea that the meta musical aspects of one milieu were shallow and that the music should be something that can essentially survive being stripped of them if it was ever of value at all.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
butwhywhyoh 4y ago
I suppose then you're a proponent of photographing all famous works of art and displaying them on a webpage somewhere, because if the painting is worth looking at, the medium shouldn't matter at all, right? I guess going to a museum to view artwork is an incredibly shallow experience for you?
- daveoc64 4y ago
  Album art etc. is supplementary to the music - I don't need to see it on a square piece of cardboard to "appreciate" it. An original artwork is just that - best when the original is viewed. A CD, Tape, or Vinyl is in no way "the original".
- blep_ 4y ago
  I'm not that person, but... yes, unironically. Maybe different people value different things?
- throwaway675309 4y ago
  This isn't really an accurate analogy because the art is produced with a visual medium in mind. Whereas music is produced with the transference of auditory information in mind (album art, concerts, and all the physical swag garbage is ancilliary)
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
Exactly! Also, if a song has parts you don’t like, simply cut those out! I don’t care what the artist intended - I only keep what’s worthy of my attention!

objclxt 4y ago

> Enjoyment of music linked to a specific physical item seems incredibly shallow to me. To a certain extent, but across the arts there's always artists that want to play with the format, so a changing of format can result in something being re-contextualised. For example, you can have [multisided vinyl][1] with hidden tracks, or loop a track onto itself so the record plays forever (like Sergeant Pepper). Neither are really possible with MP3 (there's a Brian Eno record that does both (the track bifurcates and loops at them end), so you get a random sample looping at the end of the LP). I am not saying this means the enjoyment of the music is lessened when you listen to it digitally - just that plenty of artists have written and produced pieces with the physical format at the front of their minds. [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisided_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisided_record

sqlacid 4y ago
I'll never forget discovering the third track of Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief, thought I'd lost my mind. As an Eno fan I'm not familiar with the mentioned album. King Crimson would put hidden messages printed in the vinyl inner track, I remember seeing "The next step is Discipline", which was their next album. I also miss the thriving bootleg community, picture discs.
alexvoda 4y ago
I see no reason why all of that could not be done in software. Same as DVD menus. For the record, VLC supports DVD menus and the Matroska container format (mkv, mka, mks, and the basis for webm) supports all of the features imagined so far. I believe the demand for the content far outweighed the demand for the presentation layer. All of these forms of interactivity however didn't prove popular in the digital world. Think of DVD's again. How often would you have ripped a DVD into a 4 or 8 GiB ISO in order to preserve the full experience and how often would you have rather ripped just the video file ~400 MiB, reencoded using a modern codec. Netflix optimises for the latter. If you allow for programability, all features of music albums and more can be recreated. What people want is no fuss instant access to the popular music of the moment therefore we have streaming services with good enough quality for most people and vast enough but incomplete collections of music. All while navigating the maze of licensing internationally. How many listeners do you believe would rather open Spotify/iTunes/WinAmp and press play to hear music and how many would rather navigate a album specific experience. If experience is so important, it can still be done in the streaming focused world of today (without standardised formats like Matroska). Just package it as an app (native or web), publish it on the app stores and let the app store take a 30% cut. Apps do not appear to be a popular format for music albums or for movies, even though they were attempted.

AlecSchueler 4y ago

Why should the medium not matter? I actually feel that's the shallow take Quite often, historically, music comes as part of a complete experiential package. Gatherings around fire, singing and dancing in groups, celebrating life's milestones, getting dressed up for concerts, excitement at buying tickets, journeying in and out of the city to pick up new recordings. All of those things are valid aspects of musical culture for me. Stripping the meta musical aspects from the musical experience is inherently lossy and in some ways diminishes the full spectrum of what music can be. This is especially true for music that was created outside of and/or before the streaming milieu.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cortesoft 4y ago
Weren’t those things stripped from music when we invented recording?
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  Some things were lost, yes, and some things were gained. My list included both types of things. Some things are lost again with the move to streaming and, again, some things are lost. I was uncomfortable with the idea that the meta musical aspects of one milieu were shallow and that the music should be something that can essentially survive being stripped of them if it was ever of value at all.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

butwhywhyoh 4y ago

I suppose then you're a proponent of photographing all famous works of art and displaying them on a webpage somewhere, because if the painting is worth looking at, the medium shouldn't matter at all, right? I guess going to a museum to view artwork is an incredibly shallow experience for you?

daveoc64 4y ago
Album art etc. is supplementary to the music - I don't need to see it on a square piece of cardboard to "appreciate" it. An original artwork is just that - best when the original is viewed. A CD, Tape, or Vinyl is in no way "the original".
blep_ 4y ago
I'm not that person, but... yes, unironically. Maybe different people value different things?
throwaway675309 4y ago
This isn't really an accurate analogy because the art is produced with a visual medium in mind. Whereas music is produced with the transference of auditory information in mind (album art, concerts, and all the physical swag garbage is ancilliary)

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago

Exactly! Also, if a song has parts you don’t like, simply cut those out! I don’t care what the artist intended - I only keep what’s worthy of my attention!