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I realised recently China has a population of 1 billion and 400 million. That's more than a billion more people than the U.S. And they dont have democracy. The

I realised recently China has a population of 1 billion and 400 million. That's more than a billion more people than the U.S. And they dont have democracy. They cant french revolution on their CCP thing. Im no expert but this is mostly due to surveillance right? Dont say culture please, nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate. This convinced me surveillance is bad. Edit: some of you disagree. Id like the opportunity to convince you. I get it that many chinese are just happy with the regime. And actually, I dont judge that. Its certainly a cool regime in some ways. But democracy grows like weed, there is no stopping it. But with surveillance. Remove surveillance, there is democracy in China tomorrow.

axlee 4y ago
> And they dont have democracy. They cant french revolution on their CCP thing. Im no expert but this is mostly due to surveillance right? Dont say culture please, nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate. Of course culture has a part in it. Believe it or not, most people have never experienced democracy, and a sizeable amount do not believe that it is a superior society model. Some cultures will never be democratic in their current form, starting with the ones where religion is deeply intertwined with politics. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/02/27/democratic-rights-popular-globally-but-commitment-to-them-not-always-strong/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/02/27/democratic-rig...
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I believe the Greeks had democracy in a number of their city states, but some also had war, slavery, and a fairly pervasive misogyny. There's an old saying I remember: "The best form of government is an absolute monarchy. The worst form of government is an absolute monarchy." It all depends who's on top of the heap. Democracy tends to dilute the damage done by bad actors, but also hobbles really good ones. No system is perfect.
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > There's an old saying I remember: "The best form of government is an absolute monarchy. The worst form of government is an absolute monarchy." Constitutional monarchy seems to rank highly: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_country
    - axlee 4y ago
      Remember that this list is from the PoV of the anglo world. Them classifying France, Italy, Belgium or Spain as a flawed democracy while the UK would be "full" is hilarious. Strange, they're all latin countries. The Economist has been dunking on France with absurd claims for decades, for whatever reasons that is, so I am not really surprised.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > Believe it or not, most people have never experienced democracy, and a sizeable amount do not believe that it is a superior society model. Ask them if they'd like to get rid of corruption though: I would guess that most people would like to get rid of that from where they live, and you're more likely to remove it under democratic regimes. > Some cultures will never be democratic in their current form, starting with the ones where religion is deeply intertwined with politics. Religion or tribalism/clans? You'll find places that are democratic are less likely to be tribal/clanish (which often leads to less corruption), and there's a high level of modern secularism as well. You'll also find that these traits also tend to correlate highly with (historically) Christian cultures: * https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/10/joseph-henrich-weird-people/615496/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/10/joseph-... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_Wor... * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/nov/21/dominion-making-western-mind-tom-holland-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/nov/21/dominion-makin...
  - axlee 4y ago
    > Ask them if they'd like to get rid of corruption though: I would guess that most people would like to get rid of that from where they live, and you're more likely to remove it under democratic regimes. Yes. In the above poll, pretty much every culture was advocating for a "fair justice system". But what justice? You'll find that the definition of justice varies wildly between places like, say, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, and Iceland. The kind of justice the people want in some places has nothing to do with democracy. What constitutes "corruption" also varies wildly. If you ask someone from Uganda what sort of corruption he refers to, you might be surprised of the answer. > Religion or tribalism/clans? You'll find places that are democratic are less likely to be tribal/clanish (which often leads to less corruption), and there's a high level of modern secularism as well. You'll also find that these traits also tend to correlate highly with (historically) Christian cultures: You are taking the problem from the wrong end. Tribalist/clanic cultures cannot easily move towards democracy, it is not democratics states that are less likely to be tribal/clanic.
daquisu 4y ago
> I realised recently China has a population of 1 billion and 400 million. That's more than a billion more people than the U.S. That's funny because India has also over a billion more people than the U.S., but the U.S is ranked 3rd by population. This means that even if US got 1 billion more people, they would still be the ranked 3rd by population
olalonde 4y ago
> Im no expert but this is mostly due to surveillance right? Dont say culture please, nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate. I know it's hard to believe but ask people who have lived in China. Most Chinese people do have a favorable view of the CCP and don't seem to mind the surveillance that much (or they welcome it). Source: lived in China for ~10 years.
- trompetenaccoun 4y ago
  I've lived in China longer than you and disagree. As a general rule: Anyone who speaks for hundreds of millions of people is either a demagogue or simply stereotyping. With the way things are at this point, you can't even know what Chinese people really think without being very close friends with them. Under Hu when the internet still wasn't as insanely censored, public opinion online was largely negative of the party and in the general population including older folks I'd guesstimate somewhere around 50/50. Keep in mind that was right at the height of the economic boom, so finance wise people couldn't have been more happy. But like OP says, no one wants to be unfree. The assumption that people in certain parts of the world are more predisposed to support totalitarianism strikes me as (unconsciously) racist.
  - olalonde 4y ago
    I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm just relating my own experience from talking with hundreds of Chinese people over the years including my wife, her family members, my friends, etc. A pretty large sample overall. This research seems to mirror my experience: https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7... > The assumption that people in certain parts of the world are more predisposed to support totalitarianism strikes me as (unconsciously) racist. Oh boy...
    - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
      Xi's China is a totalitarian state. Your anecdotal evidence of "speaking to hundreds of people" means nothing. I've been to North Korea and everyone told me they lover their dear leader. That clearly proves North Koreans are happy with their leadership by your logic. In fact, I don't think you'll find any totalitarian state where people aren't satisfied. Ergo totalitarianism is great.
hutzlibu 4y ago
"nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate." But most people prefer stability and prosperity over chaos and civil war, of which china had plenty of. And economically china is quite good, this is the main reason, the CCP is still in power.
HidyBush 4y ago
Chinese people are happy to trade their privacy and freedoms if it means guaranteed prosperity and security. As long as they and their children are certain to get a job that pays for basic life and a few amenities for them and their family they don't care. One of the problems the CCP is facing is that the moment a regression comes and this security is not guaranteed the people supposedly will stop accepting the compromise
- throw0101c 4y ago
  > Chinese people are happy to trade their privacy and freedoms if it means guaranteed prosperity and security. One historical observation that was published a few years ago: > It must be understood that liberalism and nationalism developed in China in lockstep, with one, in a sense, serving as means to the other. That is, liberalism was a means to serve national ends — the wealth and power of the country. And so when means and end came into conflict, as they inevitably did, the end won out. Nationalism trumped liberalism. Unity, sovereignty, and the means to preserve both were ultimately more important even to those who espoused republicanism and the franchise. > China’s betrayal at Versailles did not help the cause of liberalism in China. After all, it was the standard bearers of liberalism — the U.K., France, and the United States — that had negotiated secret treaties to give Shandong to the Japanese. > Former liberals gravitated toward two main camps, both overtly Leninist in organization, both unapologetically authoritarian: the Nationalists and the Communists. By the mid-1920s, the overwhelming majority of Chinese intellectuals believed that an authoritarian solution was China’s only recourse. * https://supchina.com/2019/07/22/why-do-chinese-people-like-their-government/ https://supchina.com/2019/07/22/why-do-chinese-people-like-t... * https://kottke.org/19/08/why-do-chinese-people-like-their-government https://kottke.org/19/08/why-do-chinese-people-like-their-go... (via)
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate they've been a unified entity for over 3 thousand years, of course culture has a big part in it. Besides, I'm not sure US (specifically) democracy is much better than Chinese system. It's simply a different way of exercising power. The average Chinese citizen is probably as content as the average American citizen.
- polotics 4y ago
  They like to tell all these stories, none of it is true. I propose that burden of proof is on the parent poster. Also don't forget Tibetans and Ouigours
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > Besides, I'm not sure US (specifically) democracy is much better than Chinese system. See also: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_country * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Country_rankings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Country_r... > The average Chinese citizen is probably as content as the average American citizen. Ask the minorities how they're treated in each (or in any country really).
  - capableweb 4y ago
    > The Democracy Index is an index compiled by the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), the research division of the Economist Group, a UK-based private company which publishes the weekly newspaper The Economist > Freedom in the World is a yearly survey and report by the U.S.-based[2] non-governmental organization Freedom House I'm not saying their data is wrong, but as always when it comes to data, it'd be great to have resources/data to read/interpret coming from "the other side" as well. What do Asia-based/China-based organizations say about "democracy" and "freedom" in the US and Europe? Would they agree with the assessment from their US/Europe-based equivalents?
    - throw0101a 4y ago
ascar 4y ago
> And they dont have democracy. They cant french revolution on their CCP thing. [...] Dont say culture please, nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate But it is mostly cultural. Individualism isn't nearly as important in China (and most of Asia) as it is in the West. And of course that translates to preferences and level of (un)happiness with the government and forms of governance. The west often operates under the false assumption that our way is the only right way and we easily dismiss these essential cultural differences. > Im no expert but this is mostly due to surveillance right? I don't think this is a logical conclusion. It certainly helps them in a way, but there was also no French revolution in China before modern surveillance was a thing. From a Chinese perspective many might be happy with their rise in importance and economic strength and the population grows wealthier each year.
throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
no freedom of speech. no freedom of press. no right to assemble. and most importantly - no guns it could happen here
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dirtyid 4y ago
>they dont have democracy Whatever system PRC is, rigourous surveys have consistently shown they overwhelmingly approve of it. And according to democracy perception index, significantly more Chinese view their system as democratic and democracy was important vs democratic decline in west. Democracy in this case being full process democracy - CCPs Democracy with Chinese characteristics. Regardless, flip side of whatever role of surveilliance in mediating speech is made up in improving security and enforcing laws that has vastly improved QoL. Pre mass survelliance PRC cities were chaotic as fuck, it's fun wild west if you're an expat, but most people prefer order. >But democracy grows like weed I would say most of human history demonstrates power aggregates towards some for of authoritarianism, especially in risky geopolitical enviroments.

axlee 4y ago

> And they dont have democracy. They cant french revolution on their CCP thing. Im no expert but this is mostly due to surveillance right? Dont say culture please, nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate. Of course culture has a part in it. Believe it or not, most people have never experienced democracy, and a sizeable amount do not believe that it is a superior society model. Some cultures will never be democratic in their current form, starting with the ones where religion is deeply intertwined with politics. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/02/27/democratic-rights-popular-globally-but-commitment-to-them-not-always-strong/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/02/27/democratic-rig...

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I believe the Greeks had democracy in a number of their city states, but some also had war, slavery, and a fairly pervasive misogyny. There's an old saying I remember: "The best form of government is an absolute monarchy. The worst form of government is an absolute monarchy." It all depends who's on top of the heap. Democracy tends to dilute the damage done by bad actors, but also hobbles really good ones. No system is perfect.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > There's an old saying I remember: "The best form of government is an absolute monarchy. The worst form of government is an absolute monarchy." Constitutional monarchy seems to rank highly: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_country
  - axlee 4y ago
    Remember that this list is from the PoV of the anglo world. Them classifying France, Italy, Belgium or Spain as a flawed democracy while the UK would be "full" is hilarious. Strange, they're all latin countries. The Economist has been dunking on France with absurd claims for decades, for whatever reasons that is, so I am not really surprised.
throw0101a 4y ago
> Believe it or not, most people have never experienced democracy, and a sizeable amount do not believe that it is a superior society model. Ask them if they'd like to get rid of corruption though: I would guess that most people would like to get rid of that from where they live, and you're more likely to remove it under democratic regimes. > Some cultures will never be democratic in their current form, starting with the ones where religion is deeply intertwined with politics. Religion or tribalism/clans? You'll find places that are democratic are less likely to be tribal/clanish (which often leads to less corruption), and there's a high level of modern secularism as well. You'll also find that these traits also tend to correlate highly with (historically) Christian cultures: * https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/10/joseph-henrich-weird-people/615496/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/10/joseph-... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_Wor... * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/nov/21/dominion-making-western-mind-tom-holland-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/nov/21/dominion-makin...
- axlee 4y ago
  > Ask them if they'd like to get rid of corruption though: I would guess that most people would like to get rid of that from where they live, and you're more likely to remove it under democratic regimes. Yes. In the above poll, pretty much every culture was advocating for a "fair justice system". But what justice? You'll find that the definition of justice varies wildly between places like, say, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, and Iceland. The kind of justice the people want in some places has nothing to do with democracy. What constitutes "corruption" also varies wildly. If you ask someone from Uganda what sort of corruption he refers to, you might be surprised of the answer. > Religion or tribalism/clans? You'll find places that are democratic are less likely to be tribal/clanish (which often leads to less corruption), and there's a high level of modern secularism as well. You'll also find that these traits also tend to correlate highly with (historically) Christian cultures: You are taking the problem from the wrong end. Tribalist/clanic cultures cannot easily move towards democracy, it is not democratics states that are less likely to be tribal/clanic.

daquisu 4y ago

> I realised recently China has a population of 1 billion and 400 million. That's more than a billion more people than the U.S. That's funny because India has also over a billion more people than the U.S., but the U.S is ranked 3rd by population. This means that even if US got 1 billion more people, they would still be the ranked 3rd by population

olalonde 4y ago

> Im no expert but this is mostly due to surveillance right? Dont say culture please, nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate. I know it's hard to believe but ask people who have lived in China. Most Chinese people do have a favorable view of the CCP and don't seem to mind the surveillance that much (or they welcome it). Source: lived in China for ~10 years.

trompetenaccoun 4y ago
I've lived in China longer than you and disagree. As a general rule: Anyone who speaks for hundreds of millions of people is either a demagogue or simply stereotyping. With the way things are at this point, you can't even know what Chinese people really think without being very close friends with them. Under Hu when the internet still wasn't as insanely censored, public opinion online was largely negative of the party and in the general population including older folks I'd guesstimate somewhere around 50/50. Keep in mind that was right at the height of the economic boom, so finance wise people couldn't have been more happy. But like OP says, no one wants to be unfree. The assumption that people in certain parts of the world are more predisposed to support totalitarianism strikes me as (unconsciously) racist.
- olalonde 4y ago
  I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm just relating my own experience from talking with hundreds of Chinese people over the years including my wife, her family members, my friends, etc. A pretty large sample overall. This research seems to mirror my experience: https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7... > The assumption that people in certain parts of the world are more predisposed to support totalitarianism strikes me as (unconsciously) racist. Oh boy...
  - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
    Xi's China is a totalitarian state. Your anecdotal evidence of "speaking to hundreds of people" means nothing. I've been to North Korea and everyone told me they lover their dear leader. That clearly proves North Koreans are happy with their leadership by your logic. In fact, I don't think you'll find any totalitarian state where people aren't satisfied. Ergo totalitarianism is great.

hutzlibu 4y ago

"nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate." But most people prefer stability and prosperity over chaos and civil war, of which china had plenty of. And economically china is quite good, this is the main reason, the CCP is still in power.

HidyBush 4y ago

Chinese people are happy to trade their privacy and freedoms if it means guaranteed prosperity and security. As long as they and their children are certain to get a job that pays for basic life and a few amenities for them and their family they don't care. One of the problems the CCP is facing is that the moment a regression comes and this security is not guaranteed the people supposedly will stop accepting the compromise

throw0101c 4y ago
> Chinese people are happy to trade their privacy and freedoms if it means guaranteed prosperity and security. One historical observation that was published a few years ago: > It must be understood that liberalism and nationalism developed in China in lockstep, with one, in a sense, serving as means to the other. That is, liberalism was a means to serve national ends — the wealth and power of the country. And so when means and end came into conflict, as they inevitably did, the end won out. Nationalism trumped liberalism. Unity, sovereignty, and the means to preserve both were ultimately more important even to those who espoused republicanism and the franchise. > China’s betrayal at Versailles did not help the cause of liberalism in China. After all, it was the standard bearers of liberalism — the U.K., France, and the United States — that had negotiated secret treaties to give Shandong to the Japanese. > Former liberals gravitated toward two main camps, both overtly Leninist in organization, both unapologetically authoritarian: the Nationalists and the Communists. By the mid-1920s, the overwhelming majority of Chinese intellectuals believed that an authoritarian solution was China’s only recourse. * https://supchina.com/2019/07/22/why-do-chinese-people-like-their-government/ https://supchina.com/2019/07/22/why-do-chinese-people-like-t... * https://kottke.org/19/08/why-do-chinese-people-like-their-government https://kottke.org/19/08/why-do-chinese-people-like-their-go... (via)

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate they've been a unified entity for over 3 thousand years, of course culture has a big part in it. Besides, I'm not sure US (specifically) democracy is much better than Chinese system. It's simply a different way of exercising power. The average Chinese citizen is probably as content as the average American citizen.

polotics 4y ago
They like to tell all these stories, none of it is true. I propose that burden of proof is on the parent poster. Also don't forget Tibetans and Ouigours
throw0101a 4y ago
> Besides, I'm not sure US (specifically) democracy is much better than Chinese system. See also: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_country * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Country_rankings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Country_r... > The average Chinese citizen is probably as content as the average American citizen. Ask the minorities how they're treated in each (or in any country really).
- capableweb 4y ago
  > The Democracy Index is an index compiled by the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), the research division of the Economist Group, a UK-based private company which publishes the weekly newspaper The Economist > Freedom in the World is a yearly survey and report by the U.S.-based[2] non-governmental organization Freedom House I'm not saying their data is wrong, but as always when it comes to data, it'd be great to have resources/data to read/interpret coming from "the other side" as well. What do Asia-based/China-based organizations say about "democracy" and "freedom" in the US and Europe? Would they agree with the assessment from their US/Europe-based equivalents?
  - throw0101a 4y ago

ascar 4y ago

> And they dont have democracy. They cant french revolution on their CCP thing. [...] Dont say culture please, nobody prefer autocracy to democracy but the autocrate But it is mostly cultural. Individualism isn't nearly as important in China (and most of Asia) as it is in the West. And of course that translates to preferences and level of (un)happiness with the government and forms of governance. The west often operates under the false assumption that our way is the only right way and we easily dismiss these essential cultural differences. > Im no expert but this is mostly due to surveillance right? I don't think this is a logical conclusion. It certainly helps them in a way, but there was also no French revolution in China before modern surveillance was a thing. From a Chinese perspective many might be happy with their rise in importance and economic strength and the population grows wealthier each year.

throwaway0x7E6 4y ago

no freedom of speech. no freedom of press. no right to assemble. and most importantly - no guns it could happen here

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dirtyid 4y ago

>they dont have democracy Whatever system PRC is, rigourous surveys have consistently shown they overwhelmingly approve of it. And according to democracy perception index, significantly more Chinese view their system as democratic and democracy was important vs democratic decline in west. Democracy in this case being full process democracy - CCPs Democracy with Chinese characteristics. Regardless, flip side of whatever role of surveilliance in mediating speech is made up in improving security and enforcing laws that has vastly improved QoL. Pre mass survelliance PRC cities were chaotic as fuck, it's fun wild west if you're an expat, but most people prefer order. >But democracy grows like weed I would say most of human history demonstrates power aggregates towards some for of authoritarianism, especially in risky geopolitical enviroments.