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> I suggest reading the Wikipedia articles on varna and caste in India as an introduction. There’s a lot to learn and very little of it is about color and even

> I suggest reading the Wikipedia articles on varna and caste in India as an introduction. There’s a lot to learn and very little of it is about color and even less about skin color. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) I'm sorry but it does sound a bit hilarious to me when I read from your link that the word 'varna' means skin color! The actual research on the topic gives me stuff like: "What we call caste is referred to in Sanskrit sources by two concepts—varna and jati. They both assume identity through being born into a group and following a particular occupation. The first literally means color and was used rather metaphorically as such when referring to the four major caste groups—Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra, sometimes listed as white, red, yellow, and black. Sociologists sometimes render the concept of varna as ritual or status ranking or alternately as the broader divisions of society. In the latter case, the meaning can be traced to “cover.” The word jati comes from the root ja, meaning to be born. This refers directly to identity based on birth and also extends to occupation, but it is a narrower category than varna and there are hundreds of jatis observing various rules of endogamy and exogamy." That sounds exactly like the 1 drop rule, just that it is more fractally stratified beyond black, mixed, white categorization that happens here. The one-drop rule is a social and legal principle of racial classification that was prominent in the 20th century United States. It asserted that any person with even one ancestor of black ancestry ("one drop" of "black blood")[1][2] is considered black (Negro or colored in historical terms). It is an example of hypodescent, the automatic assignment of children of a mixed union between different socioeconomic or ethnic groups to the group with the lower status, regardless of proportion of ancestry in different groups.[

barry-cotter 4y ago
The word skin does not appear in either the caste or varna article so no, varna does not mean > skin color If you look at the varna article you’ll see the concept is quite a bit more capacious than “skin color”. > The word appears in the Rigveda, where it means "colour, outward appearance, exterior, form, figure or shape".[4] The word means "color, tint, dye or pigment" in the Mahabharata.[4] Varna contextually means "colour, race, tribe, species, kind, sort, nature, character, quality, property" of an object or people in some Vedic and medieval texts. Anyway caste, varna and jati prejudice exists in India and in dispirit communities with lots of first generation immigrants. So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates.
- robinsoh 4y ago
  The original statement that you had made was: "You can’t tell caste visually.". But your own comment "So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates." seems to indicate that it is possible, at least in part to determine caste visually as does the origin story you mentioned "Rigveda" which describes 'upper caste' 'Aryan' conquests over the 'lower caste' dark skinned indigenous population. Hence, 'varna' which you have now acknowledged means 'color' albeit you're claiming a more 'advanced' meaning beyond skin color which I'm sorry, but I perceive as an attempt to spin a racist/caste origin story into something more sophisticated. Let me guess, you're going to say the 'dark colored' here is something more sophisticated then just light skinned chariot driving nomadic invaders subjugating dark skinned indigenous city dwelling people? "Through fear of thee [Agni] the dark-coloured inhabitants fled, not waiting for battle, when, O Agni (fire) burning brightly for Puru, and destroying the cities, thou didst shine." (VII, 5, 3)
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    > The original statement that you had made was: "You can’t tell caste visually.". Yes, that’s still true. Compare Kerala Dalits and Brahmins[1] or Uttar Pradesh ones[2] or Punjabi Dalits and Tamil Brahmins like I did yesterday[3]. Caste isn’t skin color. > But your own comment "So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates." seems to indicate that it is possible, at least in part to determine caste visually You can’t tell what caste someone is from their skin color. The entire range of Indian skin colors is in every caste. The distributions are almost certainly different but there are Brahmins as dark as any African and Dalits who look like Afghans. > Hence, 'varna' which you have now acknowledged means 'color' albeit you're claiming a more 'advanced' meaning beyond skin color At no stage did I use the word advanced. I suggest you reserve quotation marks for quotations as it aids clear communication. I do not speak Sanskrit but I bow to the expertise of those who do that it means a lot more than color, never mind skin color. > which I'm sorry, but I perceive as an attempt to spin a racist/caste origin story into something more sophisticated. You may not know this but the Vedas are stories of events that happened 3,000-5,000 years ago. The origins of caste prejudice are not super relevant to its modern particulars because Indians in the same region have overlappping distributions of skin color. We’re not talking Chinese and Egyptian here. More like Austrian and Lombard. [1] https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/kerala-dalit-man-assaulted-not-converting-christianity-after-wedding-157243?amp https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/kerala-dalit-man-assau... https://medium.com/@jawadakhtar/wedding-rituals-typical-to-kerala-brahmin-weddings-f09f8d35a4c3 https://medium.com/@jawadakhtar/wedding-rituals-typical-to-k... [2] https://english.varthabharati.in/india/dalit-groom-takes-out-wedding-procession-in-ups-kasganj-to-defy-caste-prejudice https://english.varthabharati.in/india/dalit-groom-takes-out... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.craftsvilla.com/blog/the-uttar-pradesh-bride-wedding-rituals/amp/ https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.craftsvilla.com/blog/the-... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31616355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31616355

barry-cotter 4y ago

The word skin does not appear in either the caste or varna article so no, varna does not mean > skin color If you look at the varna article you’ll see the concept is quite a bit more capacious than “skin color”. > The word appears in the Rigveda, where it means "colour, outward appearance, exterior, form, figure or shape".[4] The word means "color, tint, dye or pigment" in the Mahabharata.[4] Varna contextually means "colour, race, tribe, species, kind, sort, nature, character, quality, property" of an object or people in some Vedic and medieval texts. Anyway caste, varna and jati prejudice exists in India and in dispirit communities with lots of first generation immigrants. So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates.

robinsoh 4y ago
The original statement that you had made was: "You can’t tell caste visually.". But your own comment "So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates." seems to indicate that it is possible, at least in part to determine caste visually as does the origin story you mentioned "Rigveda" which describes 'upper caste' 'Aryan' conquests over the 'lower caste' dark skinned indigenous population. Hence, 'varna' which you have now acknowledged means 'color' albeit you're claiming a more 'advanced' meaning beyond skin color which I'm sorry, but I perceive as an attempt to spin a racist/caste origin story into something more sophisticated. Let me guess, you're going to say the 'dark colored' here is something more sophisticated then just light skinned chariot driving nomadic invaders subjugating dark skinned indigenous city dwelling people? "Through fear of thee [Agni] the dark-coloured inhabitants fled, not waiting for battle, when, O Agni (fire) burning brightly for Puru, and destroying the cities, thou didst shine." (VII, 5, 3)
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > The original statement that you had made was: "You can’t tell caste visually.". Yes, that’s still true. Compare Kerala Dalits and Brahmins[1] or Uttar Pradesh ones[2] or Punjabi Dalits and Tamil Brahmins like I did yesterday[3]. Caste isn’t skin color. > But your own comment "So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates." seems to indicate that it is possible, at least in part to determine caste visually You can’t tell what caste someone is from their skin color. The entire range of Indian skin colors is in every caste. The distributions are almost certainly different but there are Brahmins as dark as any African and Dalits who look like Afghans. > Hence, 'varna' which you have now acknowledged means 'color' albeit you're claiming a more 'advanced' meaning beyond skin color At no stage did I use the word advanced. I suggest you reserve quotation marks for quotations as it aids clear communication. I do not speak Sanskrit but I bow to the expertise of those who do that it means a lot more than color, never mind skin color. > which I'm sorry, but I perceive as an attempt to spin a racist/caste origin story into something more sophisticated. You may not know this but the Vedas are stories of events that happened 3,000-5,000 years ago. The origins of caste prejudice are not super relevant to its modern particulars because Indians in the same region have overlappping distributions of skin color. We’re not talking Chinese and Egyptian here. More like Austrian and Lombard. [1] https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/kerala-dalit-man-assaulted-not-converting-christianity-after-wedding-157243?amp https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/kerala-dalit-man-assau... https://medium.com/@jawadakhtar/wedding-rituals-typical-to-kerala-brahmin-weddings-f09f8d35a4c3 https://medium.com/@jawadakhtar/wedding-rituals-typical-to-k... [2] https://english.varthabharati.in/india/dalit-groom-takes-out-wedding-procession-in-ups-kasganj-to-defy-caste-prejudice https://english.varthabharati.in/india/dalit-groom-takes-out... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.craftsvilla.com/blog/the-uttar-pradesh-bride-wedding-rituals/amp/ https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.craftsvilla.com/blog/the-... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31616355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31616355