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It was specifically about the sugar content and how American tastes have morphed to expect those things. Good tomato sauce does not take hours unless you're tr

It was specifically about the sugar content and how American tastes have morphed to expect those things. Good tomato sauce does not take hours unless you're trying to cook it in a skillet on a sidewalk in Arizona. Sunday sauce is a bit different, but that's because you're simmering meat in it. Gravy is an entirely different animal. Yes, it's mostly flour and corn starch, but it's also not the star of the dish the way that tomato sauce is. I don't know anybody in my family aside from my Gen X sister and millennial cousins who can't make gravy from scratch. My "Greatest Generation" grandmother in particular only cooked about 30-40 dishes, but she cooked them so regularly that she didn't need a cookbook, and they were never anything but great (except when she tried to feed me frozen pizza when I would stay over for the week. She'd throw American cheese and ham on top because she didn't believe it would be filling enough).

klodolph 4y ago
I think there was a bit of a backlash against sauces from the gen-x and millennial crowd, and that may explain why they can’t make gravy. Popularity and fashion explains a lot, and gravy was NOT popular during the gen-x and millennial eras. I think this is just because we got bad TV dinners drowning in sauce, nothing more or less than that. The baby boomers I know had a similar backlash against canned goods—boomers had plenty of awful canned Lima beans made into casseroles growing up, and it put many of them off canned goods in general, for better or worse. Just another example of fashion in food—lard is coming back in fashion as an ingredient in home cooking, and in the UK, brown sauce is going out of fashion.
b112 4y ago
I'm going to hang my comment here! Your corn starch statement made a perfect hook, but there are a lot of gravy comments I don't understand in this thread. I don't get why people would use flavour packets when making gravy, or why people would use corn starch. Not saying it's wrong, but that it seems unneeded. For example, let's say I fry up a pork chop. I may put 1/2 a spanish onion in the pan, and I'd definitely add some cayane pepper and mustard powder. Maybe some fresh garlic. As the cooking nears completion, I'll add flour over everything, until all the juices and grease is absorbed. At this point I want to brown the flour a little bit. My heat is little below medium, I want browned, not burned. So, I try to flatten the flour against the cooking surface, spread it out, make sure it gets heat. This takes maybe 4 minutes, with me making sure the flour gets moved around, re-flattened, mixed up a bit, so it all browns. When ready, add in cold water. The amount is try-till-you-learn amount. If it starts out too thick, add more! Now set pan to full heat, and stir repeatedly. When the water is hard boiling, keep stirring, making sure that during this entire process you are cleaning the bottom of the pan. If you're using nonstick, instead of stainless or iron, you probably can't do this right. You need to scrape the pan here. You need to forcefully agitate. Right tool, right job. You may need to turn the heat down a bit, as things thicken. Again, you need to start thin, make thick. (When you first add the cold water, it will be very water like. Thin. But what happens is the flour breaks up, and makes it thick, so first timers will need a lot more water than they think.) Two things will happen here. You will collect all the flavour from everything you have just cooked, and the gravy will start to thicken on its own. No corn starch is required, or flavour packet. Full, lush, flavourful, thick gravy, no lumps, cold water is part of this, and the hard boil after. It will take a few tries to get it right, but once learned, all things become gravy. Note: thanks for lettimg me hang my comment here. Also hi.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Corn starch in American sauces was probably introduced by Chinese immigrants, where starched based sauces are extremely common instead of flour-based ones, since wheat is historically less common in southern China (where most early Chinese immigrants came from) Starch also has the nice property of tenderizing meat and locking in juices when used in a marinade, in a process called “velveting.” https://www.bonappetit.com/story/velveting-meat/amp https://www.bonappetit.com/story/velveting-meat/amp
  - b112 4y ago
    Corn is a new world thing, although I admit that early Chinese immigrants could have discovered it as a replacement for some Chinese starchy thing...
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      Corn shows up in China during the 1500s via the Phillipines. https://amp.goldthread2.com/food/how-corn-ended-china-americas/article/2158689 https://amp.goldthread2.com/food/how-corn-ended-china-americ... The traditional starch is water chestnut, and you can still buy it, but corn is a lot easier to turn into a starch. In general, a lot of things went via the Pacific as well during the Columbian Exchange. East, Southeast, and South Asian looks very different without chilis, tomatoes, or sweet potatoes to name a few.
      - b112 4y ago
        Earlier than I thought, I figured a couple of centries later.
- jessaustin 4y ago
  That's a fine technique. What set me off ITT was the "a kit or a flavor packet" recommendation. I have long considered these to be egregious wastes of money. The ones that act as thickeners are mostly corn starch (which is weird for non-Chinese-food), except a 2 oz packet costs more than a whole tub of corn starch. The ones for flavor are almost entirely salt and MSG. There's nothing wrong with salt or MSG, but they are also much cheaper when purchased individually. I think this phenomenon started in USA with the "Betty Crocker" and "Bisquick" product line. This was marketed as easier than scratch cooking. There's nothing wrong with the concept (I'm sure there is a box of Bisquick in my kitchen), but it doesn't always make sense from a value standpoint. Also it is less flexible. You could apply the technique you describe no matter what you were cooking, and you could vary the timing and amounts a great deal. The "kit" stuff is more like a chemistry demonstration, which must be carried out fairly closely to the directions on the box in order to remain somewhat flavorful. https://tastecooking.com/the-thing-about-bisquick/ https://tastecooking.com/the-thing-about-bisquick/

klodolph 4y ago

I think there was a bit of a backlash against sauces from the gen-x and millennial crowd, and that may explain why they can’t make gravy. Popularity and fashion explains a lot, and gravy was NOT popular during the gen-x and millennial eras. I think this is just because we got bad TV dinners drowning in sauce, nothing more or less than that. The baby boomers I know had a similar backlash against canned goods—boomers had plenty of awful canned Lima beans made into casseroles growing up, and it put many of them off canned goods in general, for better or worse. Just another example of fashion in food—lard is coming back in fashion as an ingredient in home cooking, and in the UK, brown sauce is going out of fashion.

b112 4y ago

I'm going to hang my comment here! Your corn starch statement made a perfect hook, but there are a lot of gravy comments I don't understand in this thread. I don't get why people would use flavour packets when making gravy, or why people would use corn starch. Not saying it's wrong, but that it seems unneeded. For example, let's say I fry up a pork chop. I may put 1/2 a spanish onion in the pan, and I'd definitely add some cayane pepper and mustard powder. Maybe some fresh garlic. As the cooking nears completion, I'll add flour over everything, until all the juices and grease is absorbed. At this point I want to brown the flour a little bit. My heat is little below medium, I want browned, not burned. So, I try to flatten the flour against the cooking surface, spread it out, make sure it gets heat. This takes maybe 4 minutes, with me making sure the flour gets moved around, re-flattened, mixed up a bit, so it all browns. When ready, add in cold water. The amount is try-till-you-learn amount. If it starts out too thick, add more! Now set pan to full heat, and stir repeatedly. When the water is hard boiling, keep stirring, making sure that during this entire process you are cleaning the bottom of the pan. If you're using nonstick, instead of stainless or iron, you probably can't do this right. You need to scrape the pan here. You need to forcefully agitate. Right tool, right job. You may need to turn the heat down a bit, as things thicken. Again, you need to start thin, make thick. (When you first add the cold water, it will be very water like. Thin. But what happens is the flour breaks up, and makes it thick, so first timers will need a lot more water than they think.) Two things will happen here. You will collect all the flavour from everything you have just cooked, and the gravy will start to thicken on its own. No corn starch is required, or flavour packet. Full, lush, flavourful, thick gravy, no lumps, cold water is part of this, and the hard boil after. It will take a few tries to get it right, but once learned, all things become gravy. Note: thanks for lettimg me hang my comment here. Also hi.

bobthepanda 4y ago
Corn starch in American sauces was probably introduced by Chinese immigrants, where starched based sauces are extremely common instead of flour-based ones, since wheat is historically less common in southern China (where most early Chinese immigrants came from) Starch also has the nice property of tenderizing meat and locking in juices when used in a marinade, in a process called “velveting.” https://www.bonappetit.com/story/velveting-meat/amp https://www.bonappetit.com/story/velveting-meat/amp
- b112 4y ago
  Corn is a new world thing, although I admit that early Chinese immigrants could have discovered it as a replacement for some Chinese starchy thing...
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    Corn shows up in China during the 1500s via the Phillipines. https://amp.goldthread2.com/food/how-corn-ended-china-americas/article/2158689 https://amp.goldthread2.com/food/how-corn-ended-china-americ... The traditional starch is water chestnut, and you can still buy it, but corn is a lot easier to turn into a starch. In general, a lot of things went via the Pacific as well during the Columbian Exchange. East, Southeast, and South Asian looks very different without chilis, tomatoes, or sweet potatoes to name a few.
    - b112 4y ago
      Earlier than I thought, I figured a couple of centries later.
jessaustin 4y ago
That's a fine technique. What set me off ITT was the "a kit or a flavor packet" recommendation. I have long considered these to be egregious wastes of money. The ones that act as thickeners are mostly corn starch (which is weird for non-Chinese-food), except a 2 oz packet costs more than a whole tub of corn starch. The ones for flavor are almost entirely salt and MSG. There's nothing wrong with salt or MSG, but they are also much cheaper when purchased individually. I think this phenomenon started in USA with the "Betty Crocker" and "Bisquick" product line. This was marketed as easier than scratch cooking. There's nothing wrong with the concept (I'm sure there is a box of Bisquick in my kitchen), but it doesn't always make sense from a value standpoint. Also it is less flexible. You could apply the technique you describe no matter what you were cooking, and you could vary the timing and amounts a great deal. The "kit" stuff is more like a chemistry demonstration, which must be carried out fairly closely to the directions on the box in order to remain somewhat flavorful. https://tastecooking.com/the-thing-about-bisquick/ https://tastecooking.com/the-thing-about-bisquick/