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> But my understanding is that skin color and first names do not reliably signal caste differences. My understanding from a brief examination of published pape

> But my understanding is that skin color and first names do not reliably signal caste differences. My understanding from a brief examination of published papers is the opposite. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285414433_Mapping_Color_and_Caste_Discrimination_in_Indian_Society https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285414433_Mapping_C... " Color and Caste Discrimination The belief in Aryan racial supremacy dominates social hierarchy practices in India. Upper caste members claim a superior lineage by tracing their “genes” to Aryans, connoting a “natural superiority” over “Shudra” and “ex-untouchables.” (The term “ex-untouchables” refers to Scheduled Castes, also known as Avarna (outside four Varna), Outcastes, Panchama, Antyaja, etc.) This chapter uses terms such as Dalits, ex-untouchables interchangeably, to refer to this population, though the socio-legal term defined to this population is Scheduled Castes—deemed as non-Aryans. Aryans textually are described as a pure, noble, and superior race: physically tall, with sharp noses and lighter skin color. Dasyus or Dasas, on the contrary, are considered of lowly origin and racially inferior due to their dark skin. Such stratification based on skin color is perhaps one of the oldest forms of discrimination and domination in human society. "

barry-cotter 4y ago
The average South Indian Brahmin is darker than the average North Indian Dalit. You can’t tell caste visually.
- robinsoh 4y ago
  > The average South Indian Brahmin is darker than the average North Indian Dalit. You can’t tell caste visually. It sounds like you're saying the research paper I linked to is incorrect? Is there some evidence you could help to cite. Thanks.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    The paper you cite is very bad but even it doesn’t claim that caste prejudice is primarily about skin color. It’s about ancestry and ritual purity. I suggest reading the Wikipedia articles on varna and caste in India as an introduction. There’s a lot to learn and very little of it is about color and even less about skin color. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
    - robinsoh 4y ago
      > I suggest reading the Wikipedia articles on varna and caste in India as an introduction. There’s a lot to learn and very little of it is about color and even less about skin color. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) I'm sorry but it does sound a bit hilarious to me when I read from your link that the word 'varna' means skin color! The actual research on the topic gives me stuff like: "What we call caste is referred to in Sanskrit sources by two concepts—varna and jati. They both assume identity through being born into a group and following a particular occupation. The first literally means color and was used rather metaphorically as such when referring to the four major caste groups—Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra, sometimes listed as white, red, yellow, and black. Sociologists sometimes render the concept of varna as ritual or status ranking or alternately as the broader divisions of society. In the latter case, the meaning can be traced to “cover.” The word jati comes from the root ja, meaning to be born. This refers directly to identity based on birth and also extends to occupation, but it is a narrower category than varna and there are hundreds of jatis observing various rules of endogamy and exogamy." That sounds exactly like the 1 drop rule, just that it is more fractally stratified beyond black, mixed, white categorization that happens here. The one-drop rule is a social and legal principle of racial classification that was prominent in the 20th century United States. It asserted that any person with even one ancestor of black ancestry ("one drop" of "black blood")[1][2] is considered black (Negro or colored in historical terms). It is an example of hypodescent, the automatic assignment of children of a mixed union between different socioeconomic or ethnic groups to the group with the lower status, regardless of proportion of ancestry in different groups.[
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        The word skin does not appear in either the caste or varna article so no, varna does not mean > skin color If you look at the varna article you’ll see the concept is quite a bit more capacious than “skin color”. > The word appears in the Rigveda, where it means "colour, outward appearance, exterior, form, figure or shape".[4] The word means "color, tint, dye or pigment" in the Mahabharata.[4] Varna contextually means "colour, race, tribe, species, kind, sort, nature, character, quality, property" of an object or people in some Vedic and medieval texts. Anyway caste, varna and jati prejudice exists in India and in dispirit communities with lots of first generation immigrants. So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates.

barry-cotter 4y ago

The average South Indian Brahmin is darker than the average North Indian Dalit. You can’t tell caste visually.

robinsoh 4y ago
> The average South Indian Brahmin is darker than the average North Indian Dalit. You can’t tell caste visually. It sounds like you're saying the research paper I linked to is incorrect? Is there some evidence you could help to cite. Thanks.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  The paper you cite is very bad but even it doesn’t claim that caste prejudice is primarily about skin color. It’s about ancestry and ritual purity. I suggest reading the Wikipedia articles on varna and caste in India as an introduction. There’s a lot to learn and very little of it is about color and even less about skin color. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
  - robinsoh 4y ago
    > I suggest reading the Wikipedia articles on varna and caste in India as an introduction. There’s a lot to learn and very little of it is about color and even less about skin color. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) I'm sorry but it does sound a bit hilarious to me when I read from your link that the word 'varna' means skin color! The actual research on the topic gives me stuff like: "What we call caste is referred to in Sanskrit sources by two concepts—varna and jati. They both assume identity through being born into a group and following a particular occupation. The first literally means color and was used rather metaphorically as such when referring to the four major caste groups—Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra, sometimes listed as white, red, yellow, and black. Sociologists sometimes render the concept of varna as ritual or status ranking or alternately as the broader divisions of society. In the latter case, the meaning can be traced to “cover.” The word jati comes from the root ja, meaning to be born. This refers directly to identity based on birth and also extends to occupation, but it is a narrower category than varna and there are hundreds of jatis observing various rules of endogamy and exogamy." That sounds exactly like the 1 drop rule, just that it is more fractally stratified beyond black, mixed, white categorization that happens here. The one-drop rule is a social and legal principle of racial classification that was prominent in the 20th century United States. It asserted that any person with even one ancestor of black ancestry ("one drop" of "black blood")[1][2] is considered black (Negro or colored in historical terms). It is an example of hypodescent, the automatic assignment of children of a mixed union between different socioeconomic or ethnic groups to the group with the lower status, regardless of proportion of ancestry in different groups.[
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      The word skin does not appear in either the caste or varna article so no, varna does not mean > skin color If you look at the varna article you’ll see the concept is quite a bit more capacious than “skin color”. > The word appears in the Rigveda, where it means "colour, outward appearance, exterior, form, figure or shape".[4] The word means "color, tint, dye or pigment" in the Mahabharata.[4] Varna contextually means "colour, race, tribe, species, kind, sort, nature, character, quality, property" of an object or people in some Vedic and medieval texts. Anyway caste, varna and jati prejudice exists in India and in dispirit communities with lots of first generation immigrants. So does colorism, where lighter skin is preferred. But they’re not the same thing and acting as if they are confuses much, much more than it illuminates.