7 ms·

…but then it still wouldn’t be a problem of discrimination in the US; it’d be a problem in India. The ultimate question is whether that discrimination gets car

by setr 4y ago

…but then it still wouldn’t be a problem of discrimination in the US; it’d be a problem in India. The ultimate question is whether that discrimination gets carried forward into the US and continues to be executed here; not whether caste-discrimination happens somewhere in the world

paxys 4y ago
Inherent biases don't automatically disappear when someone gets on a plane and crosses some borders. Even more so when such discrimination isn't illegal here like it is back home and isn't part of corporate policy or any training material. There are enough reports and even lawsuits of such practices in Silicon Valley: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-caste-bias-silicon-valley/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-... https://www.npr.org/transcripts/923736245 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/923736245 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-11/how-big-tech-is-importing-india-s-caste-legacy-to-silicon-valley https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-11/how-big-t... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cisco-lawsuit/california-accuses-cisco-of-job-discrimination-based-on-indian-employees-caste-idUSKBN2423YE https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cisco-lawsuit/california-...
- belltaco 4y ago
  From the WaPo article: >Devesh Kapur, a professor of South Asian studies at Johns Hopkins University, found that in 2003, only 1.5 percent of Indian immigrants in the United States were Dalits or members of the lower-ranked castes. >Dalit engineers said that most Indian workers from upper castes do not seem aware of their caste privilege and believe caste bias is a thing of the past, despite the fact that high-profile tech CEOs and board members, such as Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and Amazon board member Indra Nooyi, the former CEO of Pepsi, are Brahmins, or members of the highest caste. What does this even mean? With 1.5% of Indians in the US, just with the probability of numbers, why would anyone expect a high profile CEO out of two examples to be a lower caste Indian? And also with those examples they seem to be implying that Americans are casteist? How does the ladder of managers who decide promotions look like at, say, Pepsi? Were they all Indians that are holding the other 1.5% of Indians from rising up to the level of CEO of Pepsi?
kelnos 4y ago
It's a problem here because low-caste Indians do make it to the US, just in very small numbers compared to high-caste Indians. And if they still suffer discrimination, shouldn't we as a society try to fix that? Perhaps it's even more critical here, as the low-caste group is an even smaller minority here, and so you'd expect they have an even harder time standing up for themselves. Especially given that they're often here on H1-B visas (or similar), and making waves at work could get them fired and and forced to leave the country. It's a hell of a deal with the devil they have to make: put up with the same discrimination they suffered at home, but without any kind of social support network, in exchange for the possibility getting a green card 10 or 15 or 20 years down the road and thus gaining some security residence-wise.
- setr 4y ago
  > And if they still suffer discrimination, shouldn't we as a society try to fix that? Sure, the US society should strive to eliminate caste-based discrimination occurring in the US. But that it occurs in India does not mean that it’s been carried forward in the US. A history of discrimination leading to a disadvantaged position today, and as a result needing additional support, is a separate problem — an argument for affirmative action — but ultimately is nothing different than all the other classes of peoples who’ve been fucked by history struggling to find security in the US (that is, any solution to the problem is not really particular to Indians, or the caste-system).
  - kelnos 4y ago
    > But that it occurs in India does not mean that it’s been carried forward in the US. It doesn't mean that, certainly, but it seems plausible that it would be, to some extent. And while some lower-caste Indians in the US don't believe they've suffered caste-based discrimination, other do. So... it's here?

by setr 4y ago

paxys 4y ago

Inherent biases don't automatically disappear when someone gets on a plane and crosses some borders. Even more so when such discrimination isn't illegal here like it is back home and isn't part of corporate policy or any training material. There are enough reports and even lawsuits of such practices in Silicon Valley: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-caste-bias-silicon-valley/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-... https://www.npr.org/transcripts/923736245 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/923736245 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-11/how-big-tech-is-importing-india-s-caste-legacy-to-silicon-valley https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-11/how-big-t... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cisco-lawsuit/california-accuses-cisco-of-job-discrimination-based-on-indian-employees-caste-idUSKBN2423YE https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cisco-lawsuit/california-...

belltaco 4y ago
From the WaPo article: >Devesh Kapur, a professor of South Asian studies at Johns Hopkins University, found that in 2003, only 1.5 percent of Indian immigrants in the United States were Dalits or members of the lower-ranked castes. >Dalit engineers said that most Indian workers from upper castes do not seem aware of their caste privilege and believe caste bias is a thing of the past, despite the fact that high-profile tech CEOs and board members, such as Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and Amazon board member Indra Nooyi, the former CEO of Pepsi, are Brahmins, or members of the highest caste. What does this even mean? With 1.5% of Indians in the US, just with the probability of numbers, why would anyone expect a high profile CEO out of two examples to be a lower caste Indian? And also with those examples they seem to be implying that Americans are casteist? How does the ladder of managers who decide promotions look like at, say, Pepsi? Were they all Indians that are holding the other 1.5% of Indians from rising up to the level of CEO of Pepsi?

kelnos 4y ago

It's a problem here because low-caste Indians do make it to the US, just in very small numbers compared to high-caste Indians. And if they still suffer discrimination, shouldn't we as a society try to fix that? Perhaps it's even more critical here, as the low-caste group is an even smaller minority here, and so you'd expect they have an even harder time standing up for themselves. Especially given that they're often here on H1-B visas (or similar), and making waves at work could get them fired and and forced to leave the country. It's a hell of a deal with the devil they have to make: put up with the same discrimination they suffered at home, but without any kind of social support network, in exchange for the possibility getting a green card 10 or 15 or 20 years down the road and thus gaining some security residence-wise.

setr 4y ago
> And if they still suffer discrimination, shouldn't we as a society try to fix that? Sure, the US society should strive to eliminate caste-based discrimination occurring in the US. But that it occurs in India does not mean that it’s been carried forward in the US. A history of discrimination leading to a disadvantaged position today, and as a result needing additional support, is a separate problem — an argument for affirmative action — but ultimately is nothing different than all the other classes of peoples who’ve been fucked by history struggling to find security in the US (that is, any solution to the problem is not really particular to Indians, or the caste-system).
- kelnos 4y ago
  > But that it occurs in India does not mean that it’s been carried forward in the US. It doesn't mean that, certainly, but it seems plausible that it would be, to some extent. And while some lower-caste Indians in the US don't believe they've suffered caste-based discrimination, other do. So... it's here?