4 ms·

> are hard for me (an Anglo-American) to judge, seeing as if it were happening (either way) there's little chance I would have noticed it. That's an interestin

> are hard for me (an Anglo-American) to judge, seeing as if it were happening (either way) there's little chance I would have noticed it. That's an interesting comment. "little chance I would have noticed it." . I found this NYT article that pointed out we've long had our own caste system that we don't seem to notice. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/magazine/isabel-wilkerson-caste.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/magazine/isabel-wilkerson... " a caste system with ancient rules and assumptions that made such a horror possible, that held each actor in that scene in its grip. Off camera, two other men in uniform, who looked like the lighter man, were holding down the darker man from the other side of the police car as dusk approached in Minneapolis. Yet another man in uniform, of Asian descent and thus not in the dominant caste, stood near, watching, immobilized, it seemed, at a remove from his own humanity and potential common cause, as the darker man slipped out of consciousness. We soon learned that the man on the ground, George Floyd, had been accused of trying to pass a counterfeit $20 bill, and, like uncountable Black men over the centuries, lost his life over what might have been a mere citation for people in the dominant caste. "

barry-cotter 4y ago
If you don’t know what caste is you are under no obligation to take part in a discussion about it. You can just sit it out.
- robinsoh 4y ago
  > If you don’t know what caste is you are under no obligation to take part in a discussion about it. You can just sit it out. It is unclear what you're trying to communicate. Would you like to clarify? Are you saying I don't know what caste is?
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    Yes. Anyone who finds a comment analogising race in America to caste in India insightful knows nothing about caste.
    - robinsoh 4y ago
      > Anyone who finds a comment analogising race in America to caste in India insightful knows nothing about caste. I will respectfully disagree strongly. I have read the wikipedia links you provided to back your prior claim that 'caste' is not analogous to 'race'. My readings so far, even based on the very links you provided, shows that it appears to be very much race and skin color related. Literally, the word you mentioned, "Varna" means skin color! "Varna contextually means "colour, race, tribe, species, kind, sort, nature, character, quality, property" of an object or people in some Vedic and medieval texts.[4] Varna refers to four social classes in the Manusmriti.[4][5]"
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  Participation in the conversation is allowed as long as you're respectful. Everyone learns something for the first time some time if they are to learn at all.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    You’re right. There are more productive ways to convey the same message.
kelnos 4y ago
That's... not really caste, though? I mean, ok, caste systems are determined by heredity, as is skin color, but that's not really the same thing. One's caste is enforced by social convention, while one's skin color just... is.
- robinsoh 4y ago
  > That's... not really caste, though? My understanding from a brief examination of published papers is that it is a significant component of it though. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285414433_Mapping_C https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285414433_Mapping_C... " Color and Caste Discrimination The belief in Aryan racial supremacy dominates social hierarchy practices in India. Upper caste members claim a superior lineage by tracing their “genes” to Aryans, connoting a “natural superiority” over “Shudra” and “ex-untouchables.” (The term “ex-untouchables” refers to Scheduled Castes, also known as Avarna (outside four Varna), Outcastes, Panchama, Antyaja, etc.) This chapter uses terms such as Dalits, ex-untouchables interchangeably, to refer to this population, though the socio-legal term defined to this population is Scheduled Castes—deemed as non-Aryans. Aryans textually are described as a pure, noble, and superior race: physically tall, with sharp noses and lighter skin color. Dasyus or Dasas, on the contrary, are considered of lowly origin and racially inferior due to their dark skin. Such stratification based on skin color is perhaps one of the oldest forms of discrimination and domination in human society. "
  - skissane 4y ago
    > My understanding from a brief examination of published papers is that it is a significant component of it though. Another point of view [0]: > The view taken by many that caste is invariably related to the skin color variability found in India’s population, and that all Dalits and the lower caste in India are darker skinned, seems a grossly erroneous view. Throughout India, one can find individuals with varied degrees of skin tone in each of the different caste groups, Dalits, or Brahmins alike. However, skin colour is more location specific than caste specific because of India’s widely varied temperatures and geographical conditions. Most of the population in Jammu and Kashmir and other northern states will share fairer skin tone irrespective or their class or caste as compared to their southern Indian counterparts. In states like Haryana, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, and Madhya Pradesh, many lower caste men and women have the same colour shade as their upper caste counterparts and vice versa. > One can find dark skinned Brahmins as well as very light colored Dalits. The author agrees that skin tone discrimination is a serious problem in India, but she sees skin tone and caste as mostly orthogonal dimensions of discrimination. [0] Neha Mishra, “India and Colorism: The Finer Nuances”, Washington University Global Studies Law Review, vol. 14 n. 4 (2015)

barry-cotter 4y ago

If you don’t know what caste is you are under no obligation to take part in a discussion about it. You can just sit it out.

robinsoh 4y ago
> If you don’t know what caste is you are under no obligation to take part in a discussion about it. You can just sit it out. It is unclear what you're trying to communicate. Would you like to clarify? Are you saying I don't know what caste is?
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Yes. Anyone who finds a comment analogising race in America to caste in India insightful knows nothing about caste.
  - robinsoh 4y ago
    > Anyone who finds a comment analogising race in America to caste in India insightful knows nothing about caste. I will respectfully disagree strongly. I have read the wikipedia links you provided to back your prior claim that 'caste' is not analogous to 'race'. My readings so far, even based on the very links you provided, shows that it appears to be very much race and skin color related. Literally, the word you mentioned, "Varna" means skin color! "Varna contextually means "colour, race, tribe, species, kind, sort, nature, character, quality, property" of an object or people in some Vedic and medieval texts.[4] Varna refers to four social classes in the Manusmriti.[4][5]"
formerkrogemp 4y ago
Participation in the conversation is allowed as long as you're respectful. Everyone learns something for the first time some time if they are to learn at all.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  You’re right. There are more productive ways to convey the same message.

kelnos 4y ago

That's... not really caste, though? I mean, ok, caste systems are determined by heredity, as is skin color, but that's not really the same thing. One's caste is enforced by social convention, while one's skin color just... is.

robinsoh 4y ago
> That's... not really caste, though? My understanding from a brief examination of published papers is that it is a significant component of it though. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285414433_Mapping_C https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285414433_Mapping_C... " Color and Caste Discrimination The belief in Aryan racial supremacy dominates social hierarchy practices in India. Upper caste members claim a superior lineage by tracing their “genes” to Aryans, connoting a “natural superiority” over “Shudra” and “ex-untouchables.” (The term “ex-untouchables” refers to Scheduled Castes, also known as Avarna (outside four Varna), Outcastes, Panchama, Antyaja, etc.) This chapter uses terms such as Dalits, ex-untouchables interchangeably, to refer to this population, though the socio-legal term defined to this population is Scheduled Castes—deemed as non-Aryans. Aryans textually are described as a pure, noble, and superior race: physically tall, with sharp noses and lighter skin color. Dasyus or Dasas, on the contrary, are considered of lowly origin and racially inferior due to their dark skin. Such stratification based on skin color is perhaps one of the oldest forms of discrimination and domination in human society. "
- skissane 4y ago
  > My understanding from a brief examination of published papers is that it is a significant component of it though. Another point of view [0]: > The view taken by many that caste is invariably related to the skin color variability found in India’s population, and that all Dalits and the lower caste in India are darker skinned, seems a grossly erroneous view. Throughout India, one can find individuals with varied degrees of skin tone in each of the different caste groups, Dalits, or Brahmins alike. However, skin colour is more location specific than caste specific because of India’s widely varied temperatures and geographical conditions. Most of the population in Jammu and Kashmir and other northern states will share fairer skin tone irrespective or their class or caste as compared to their southern Indian counterparts. In states like Haryana, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, and Madhya Pradesh, many lower caste men and women have the same colour shade as their upper caste counterparts and vice versa. > One can find dark skinned Brahmins as well as very light colored Dalits. The author agrees that skin tone discrimination is a serious problem in India, but she sees skin tone and caste as mostly orthogonal dimensions of discrimination. [0] Neha Mishra, “India and Colorism: The Finer Nuances”, Washington University Global Studies Law Review, vol. 14 n. 4 (2015)