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As the second link in the article[0] points out, this app exists precisely because they're removing that, i.e. Macs don't ship with python installed anymore. [

As the second link in the article[0] points out, this app exists precisely because they're removing that, i.e. Macs don't ship with python installed anymore. [edit] More specifically, they've already stopped shipping with Python 2, and stated their intention to stop including any scripting language runtimes at all, including Python, Ruby, and Perl.[1] [0]: https://twitter.com/chockenberry/status/1511388397855645703 https://twitter.com/chockenberry/status/1511388397855645703 [1]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos-release-notes/macos-catalina-10_15-release-notes#Scripting-Language-Runtimes https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos-release-note...

ForHackernews 4y ago
One more sad nail in the coffin of general-purpose computing devices.
- tptacek 4y ago
  No, you were always much better off installing Python yourself than using the system's Python, which mostly served to get in the way.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    Yes, once you were up and running and knew what you were doing and what you needed, but the default install meant there was very little friction to first time programmers dipping their toes in the water.
    - Fatnino 4y ago
      - Kwpolska 4y ago
        On macOS, the installers provided by python.org aren’t the best way to get Python either. (pyenv or homebrew would be better; python.org installers do weird things and have no uninstaller)
      - cryptoz 4y ago
        Honestly I couldn't disagree more. Reducing friction is always good for newcomers. I got started writing code on systems that already had compilers installed because they were already installed. When I used Windows I was slower to start because the tools were not already available. 20 years later, I'm now a software developer. > If you can't figure out how to click next next next then you have no business trying to learn python yet. This is rude IMO. Who are you to tell people if they have "no business" to learn something?! This is the kind of gatekeeping that keeps curious newcomers out of tech.
        Fatnino 4y ago
        Yeah, that was worded somewhat aggressively. I guess what I really mean is you should learn and know how to click next before you learn actual code. If clicking next is an insurmountable obstacle you are going to have a very rough go at learning to code.
        cryptoz 4y ago
        I don't get where you are getting the 'insurmountable obstacle' from. I learned about computers from exploring around, typing things, seeing what happened, etc. I loved to know what my computer could do already on its own, without external tools, when I was like 13. Yes, I knew how to click 'next next next'. Everybody does. That just doesn't have anything to do with learning about computers though - going to a website and downloading a package is not and should not be a prerequisite for learning to code. Why is going out and finding a python package, downloading it, and clicking 'next next next' a prerequisite for someone to learn coding? I could suggest as well that if you think you need to do that, then you're definitely not ready to learn to code! (Though I would never, because that's silly gatekeeping). Certainly these days you can use a browser to code anyway, without downloading packages at all! So why is it such a requirement that someone click 'next next next' in order to learn? What if they don't want to? Why is that so offensive that you think they can't learn to code?
        AlecSchueler 4y ago
        Imagine a world where the majority of people became reliant on food being delivered to their door, to the point that it became uncommon to store fresh ingredients at home. Someone growing up in that environment would surely be less likely to experiment with cooking for themselves than someone living Ina home with ingredients already in the kitchen. That's not to say that going to the store would be an "insurmountable obstacle" for them, simply that the idea is no longer normalised and the barriet to entry is now non zero compared to "just start and see."
      - AlecSchueler 4y ago
        > It's just like on windows That is, non trivial to try. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that there's friction involved in finding what you need, finding it, waiting for a download and then going through an install process which might require admin privileges. No one said anything about it being difficult or hard to figure out, just that some curious minds who might have started playing around in the REPL will might now pass on the opportunity and miss out on the fun, and that's a pity for them.
        CTDOCodebases 4y ago
        > No one said anything about it being difficult or hard to figure out, just that some curious minds who might have started playing around in the REPL will might now pass on the opportunity and miss out on the fun, and that's a pity for them. This is a valid point. The difference though these days is finding the REPL would likely trigger a google search anyway since the internet is so ubiquitous. Developing nations would of course be an exception to this though I guess. My first introduction to programming was typing code from the C64 manual into my C64. It's a shame they don't include a self contained learn to program environment into modern operating systems.
      - httpsterio 4y ago
        What if you don't have access to the internet? it's not exactly trivial to download stuff if you're for example from a developing country or simply poor. As a kid, I got a lot of mileage of whatever our computers came pre-installed with and I don't think it's a bad idea to bundle a scripting language with the machine, simply to have something to tinker and play with without the need to download anything.
    - bpicolo 4y ago
      There was a ton of friction trying to use pip. Same with ruby gems. So a lot of tutorials for web development put you in a pickle quickly.
      - AlecSchueler 4y ago
        Depends on the tutorial I guess. I learned python back in 08/09 so maybe the landscape has changed but I had already written full pieces of software before I ever worried about installing 3rd party libs via pip etc
  - mwcampbell 4y ago
    I see where the GP is coming from. The old system installations of Perl, Python, and Ruby could be thought of as the 2000s equivalent of the ROM BASIC on early microcomputers -- an easy way for anyone with access to such a computer, even a child, to start dabbling with programming. But I suppose today's equivalent is the browser dev tools, or maybe Swift Playgrounds on current Apple computers.
    - jdminhbg 4y ago
      The difference is that the barrier to entry is so much lower now. If I were trying to help someone just starting out, I would point them at something like repl.it instead of whatever is preinstalled on their machine. The system Python and Ruby installs on macOS at this point are more of a hindrance to newbies than a help. You have to explain the differences between versions and hope they don't have to deal with any conflicts.
      - andrekandre 4y ago
        > The system Python and Ruby installs on macOS at this point are more of a hindrance to newbies than a help true, though it wouldn't be so bad if macos had a built-in package manager instead of needing to reach for homebrew (as great as it is)
  - whywhywhywhy 4y ago
    That’s a Python issue with how janky their language versioning and package infrastructure is, not an issue with shipping a language.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    In an alternate universe they could have done something about it, the same way a debian ships with a version, and if you don’t want it you change it. Apple is no small startup that can’t maintain an update system (could have been just part of the xcode tools), so I kinda resent them for dropping the ball completely.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      Well, I'm irritated at them for exposing a system Python at all, because I need Python to actually work, the way I need it to, so my point here is: Apple can't win.
    - IfOnlyYouKnew 4y ago
      It's a single line copy, paste & enter from brew.sh.
      - makeitdouble 4y ago
        This might be the closest to the "just install jquery" advice I can think of
- mpalmer 4y ago
  Nah, it's just raising the barrier of entry slightly for newcomers. For the real coffin nails, I look to the gradually-increasing difficulty of installing software that isn't signed by a developer registered with Apple. Fellow frogs, is it not warm in here?

ForHackernews 4y ago

One more sad nail in the coffin of general-purpose computing devices.

tptacek 4y ago
No, you were always much better off installing Python yourself than using the system's Python, which mostly served to get in the way.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  Yes, once you were up and running and knew what you were doing and what you needed, but the default install meant there was very little friction to first time programmers dipping their toes in the water.
  - Fatnino 4y ago
    - Kwpolska 4y ago
      On macOS, the installers provided by python.org aren’t the best way to get Python either. (pyenv or homebrew would be better; python.org installers do weird things and have no uninstaller)
    - cryptoz 4y ago
      Honestly I couldn't disagree more. Reducing friction is always good for newcomers. I got started writing code on systems that already had compilers installed because they were already installed. When I used Windows I was slower to start because the tools were not already available. 20 years later, I'm now a software developer. > If you can't figure out how to click next next next then you have no business trying to learn python yet. This is rude IMO. Who are you to tell people if they have "no business" to learn something?! This is the kind of gatekeeping that keeps curious newcomers out of tech.
      - Fatnino 4y ago
        Yeah, that was worded somewhat aggressively. I guess what I really mean is you should learn and know how to click next before you learn actual code. If clicking next is an insurmountable obstacle you are going to have a very rough go at learning to code.
        cryptoz 4y ago
        I don't get where you are getting the 'insurmountable obstacle' from. I learned about computers from exploring around, typing things, seeing what happened, etc. I loved to know what my computer could do already on its own, without external tools, when I was like 13. Yes, I knew how to click 'next next next'. Everybody does. That just doesn't have anything to do with learning about computers though - going to a website and downloading a package is not and should not be a prerequisite for learning to code. Why is going out and finding a python package, downloading it, and clicking 'next next next' a prerequisite for someone to learn coding? I could suggest as well that if you think you need to do that, then you're definitely not ready to learn to code! (Though I would never, because that's silly gatekeeping). Certainly these days you can use a browser to code anyway, without downloading packages at all! So why is it such a requirement that someone click 'next next next' in order to learn? What if they don't want to? Why is that so offensive that you think they can't learn to code?
        AlecSchueler 4y ago
        Imagine a world where the majority of people became reliant on food being delivered to their door, to the point that it became uncommon to store fresh ingredients at home. Someone growing up in that environment would surely be less likely to experiment with cooking for themselves than someone living Ina home with ingredients already in the kitchen. That's not to say that going to the store would be an "insurmountable obstacle" for them, simply that the idea is no longer normalised and the barriet to entry is now non zero compared to "just start and see."
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      > It's just like on windows That is, non trivial to try. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that there's friction involved in finding what you need, finding it, waiting for a download and then going through an install process which might require admin privileges. No one said anything about it being difficult or hard to figure out, just that some curious minds who might have started playing around in the REPL will might now pass on the opportunity and miss out on the fun, and that's a pity for them.
      - CTDOCodebases 4y ago
        > No one said anything about it being difficult or hard to figure out, just that some curious minds who might have started playing around in the REPL will might now pass on the opportunity and miss out on the fun, and that's a pity for them. This is a valid point. The difference though these days is finding the REPL would likely trigger a google search anyway since the internet is so ubiquitous. Developing nations would of course be an exception to this though I guess. My first introduction to programming was typing code from the C64 manual into my C64. It's a shame they don't include a self contained learn to program environment into modern operating systems.
    - httpsterio 4y ago
      What if you don't have access to the internet? it's not exactly trivial to download stuff if you're for example from a developing country or simply poor. As a kid, I got a lot of mileage of whatever our computers came pre-installed with and I don't think it's a bad idea to bundle a scripting language with the machine, simply to have something to tinker and play with without the need to download anything.
  - bpicolo 4y ago
    There was a ton of friction trying to use pip. Same with ruby gems. So a lot of tutorials for web development put you in a pickle quickly.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      Depends on the tutorial I guess. I learned python back in 08/09 so maybe the landscape has changed but I had already written full pieces of software before I ever worried about installing 3rd party libs via pip etc
- mwcampbell 4y ago
  I see where the GP is coming from. The old system installations of Perl, Python, and Ruby could be thought of as the 2000s equivalent of the ROM BASIC on early microcomputers -- an easy way for anyone with access to such a computer, even a child, to start dabbling with programming. But I suppose today's equivalent is the browser dev tools, or maybe Swift Playgrounds on current Apple computers.
  - jdminhbg 4y ago
    The difference is that the barrier to entry is so much lower now. If I were trying to help someone just starting out, I would point them at something like repl.it instead of whatever is preinstalled on their machine. The system Python and Ruby installs on macOS at this point are more of a hindrance to newbies than a help. You have to explain the differences between versions and hope they don't have to deal with any conflicts.
    - andrekandre 4y ago
      > The system Python and Ruby installs on macOS at this point are more of a hindrance to newbies than a help true, though it wouldn't be so bad if macos had a built-in package manager instead of needing to reach for homebrew (as great as it is)
- whywhywhywhy 4y ago
  That’s a Python issue with how janky their language versioning and package infrastructure is, not an issue with shipping a language.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  In an alternate universe they could have done something about it, the same way a debian ships with a version, and if you don’t want it you change it. Apple is no small startup that can’t maintain an update system (could have been just part of the xcode tools), so I kinda resent them for dropping the ball completely.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Well, I'm irritated at them for exposing a system Python at all, because I need Python to actually work, the way I need it to, so my point here is: Apple can't win.
  - IfOnlyYouKnew 4y ago
    It's a single line copy, paste & enter from brew.sh.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      This might be the closest to the "just install jquery" advice I can think of
mpalmer 4y ago
Nah, it's just raising the barrier of entry slightly for newcomers. For the real coffin nails, I look to the gradually-increasing difficulty of installing software that isn't signed by a developer registered with Apple. Fellow frogs, is it not warm in here?