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How's ripping out and replacing existing infrastructure going to reverse climate change? Not to mention that CA is about to have a lot of electricity shortages

by hnov 4y ago

How's ripping out and replacing existing infrastructure going to reverse climate change? Not to mention that CA is about to have a lot of electricity shortages that will likely necessitate the burning of gas to generate it.

cheriot 4y ago
All infrastructure is going to be upgraded at some point. Why wouldn't we make sure the new stuff has fewer externalities? It will take a generation to upgrade every kitchen. These sort of "start the incremental change" ordinances need to happen at some point. Might as well start now.
chimeracoder 4y ago
> How's ripping out and replacing existing infrastructure going to reverse climate change? Not to mention that CA is about to have a lot of electricity shortages that will likely necessitate the burning of gas to generate it. Burning gas at a power plant to generate electricity is still much more efficient than burning gas at home generate heat for cooking.
- hnov 4y ago
  You could be running gas through fuel cells if you want, still not as efficient as amortizing existing infrastructure. This reminds of the EV debacle, you should be buying a used Prius or walking places if you care about the environment, everything else is just posturing.
  - function_seven 4y ago
    The person you're buying that used Prius from, what are they buying? Or: When you purchase that EV, what are you doing with your previous car? 2 different perspectives, both require new stock to enter the market. That new stock should be EV.
    - hnov 4y ago
      Possibly a new Prius, which should be less environmentally destructive to produce given its lower price (this is kinda disingenuous since price is only a rough predictor of env impact, there’s economies of scale, taxes and subsidies, etc) than an EV. Here’s another question though, in a state like CA which wants to shut down its last nuclear plant, has a bad outlook for hydro in the near future, where would you charge this EV? During the day at work?
      - function_seven 4y ago
        I'd charge it during the day at home, or a night at home. Depends on my electricity supply and whatever the time-of-use rates are. Even charging an EV from a gas-fired power plant is still more efficient than burning gasoline in an ICE. Yes, even with transmission losses and charging losses. Burning gasoline in a small engine is wildly inefficient compared to utility-scale turbines burning natural gas. Hybrids have done a fantastic job in basically doubling this efficiency, but they're still no match for grid energy. My grid averages about 233kg CO₂ per MWh delivered. If I had an EV, and I charged it with 3,600kWh each year (12k miles), my annual CO₂ emissions would be around 900kg. Half of this is from gas plants. If I toss some panels on my roof, then the yearly emissions way down. A new Prius driving the same amount is around 2,100kg. So the argument comes down to the embodied carbon in the supply chain. The carbon released for EV manufacturing is about double that for a gas-only car. (I don't know where hybrids land on this, probably closer to gas than EV with their small batteries?) But the operational emissions dwarf the manufacturing and disposal emissions. Cars last a really long time these days. There are some regions (coal) where an EV will tie with a hybrid for net emissions. That's the worst case, a tie. But only one of those will automatically take advantage of grid improvements, more solar, etc.
function_seven 4y ago
Same way planting a seed today will give you a tree in 20 years. Existing infrastructure is emitting CO₂. The stuff we replace it with won't. The gas pipes that are shut off will no longer leak methane. The next century will be dominated by how we deal with the last century's monumental carbon emissions. We went from 300 to 400 ppm by burning immense amounts of fossil fuels. To go from 400 back to 300 will take a bit of effort. No single policy—in isolation—will "reverse climate change". But all of them will.
- chasebank 4y ago
  I can guarantee you that the fabrication / transportation / installation of a new electric unit far outweighs using the existing gas unit until end of life in terms of CO2 emissions. No different than diving a old truck vs buying a new tesla. Net negative.
  - wp381640 4y ago
    > in terms of CO2 emissions CH4 is the larger concern with natural gas This paper explains it: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.0c00437 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.0c00437

by hnov 4y ago

cheriot 4y ago

All infrastructure is going to be upgraded at some point. Why wouldn't we make sure the new stuff has fewer externalities? It will take a generation to upgrade every kitchen. These sort of "start the incremental change" ordinances need to happen at some point. Might as well start now.

chimeracoder 4y ago

> How's ripping out and replacing existing infrastructure going to reverse climate change? Not to mention that CA is about to have a lot of electricity shortages that will likely necessitate the burning of gas to generate it. Burning gas at a power plant to generate electricity is still much more efficient than burning gas at home generate heat for cooking.

hnov 4y ago
You could be running gas through fuel cells if you want, still not as efficient as amortizing existing infrastructure. This reminds of the EV debacle, you should be buying a used Prius or walking places if you care about the environment, everything else is just posturing.
- function_seven 4y ago
  The person you're buying that used Prius from, what are they buying? Or: When you purchase that EV, what are you doing with your previous car? 2 different perspectives, both require new stock to enter the market. That new stock should be EV.
  - hnov 4y ago
    Possibly a new Prius, which should be less environmentally destructive to produce given its lower price (this is kinda disingenuous since price is only a rough predictor of env impact, there’s economies of scale, taxes and subsidies, etc) than an EV. Here’s another question though, in a state like CA which wants to shut down its last nuclear plant, has a bad outlook for hydro in the near future, where would you charge this EV? During the day at work?
    - function_seven 4y ago
      I'd charge it during the day at home, or a night at home. Depends on my electricity supply and whatever the time-of-use rates are. Even charging an EV from a gas-fired power plant is still more efficient than burning gasoline in an ICE. Yes, even with transmission losses and charging losses. Burning gasoline in a small engine is wildly inefficient compared to utility-scale turbines burning natural gas. Hybrids have done a fantastic job in basically doubling this efficiency, but they're still no match for grid energy. My grid averages about 233kg CO₂ per MWh delivered. If I had an EV, and I charged it with 3,600kWh each year (12k miles), my annual CO₂ emissions would be around 900kg. Half of this is from gas plants. If I toss some panels on my roof, then the yearly emissions way down. A new Prius driving the same amount is around 2,100kg. So the argument comes down to the embodied carbon in the supply chain. The carbon released for EV manufacturing is about double that for a gas-only car. (I don't know where hybrids land on this, probably closer to gas than EV with their small batteries?) But the operational emissions dwarf the manufacturing and disposal emissions. Cars last a really long time these days. There are some regions (coal) where an EV will tie with a hybrid for net emissions. That's the worst case, a tie. But only one of those will automatically take advantage of grid improvements, more solar, etc.

function_seven 4y ago

Same way planting a seed today will give you a tree in 20 years. Existing infrastructure is emitting CO₂. The stuff we replace it with won't. The gas pipes that are shut off will no longer leak methane. The next century will be dominated by how we deal with the last century's monumental carbon emissions. We went from 300 to 400 ppm by burning immense amounts of fossil fuels. To go from 400 back to 300 will take a bit of effort. No single policy—in isolation—will "reverse climate change". But all of them will.

chasebank 4y ago
I can guarantee you that the fabrication / transportation / installation of a new electric unit far outweighs using the existing gas unit until end of life in terms of CO2 emissions. No different than diving a old truck vs buying a new tesla. Net negative.
- wp381640 4y ago
  > in terms of CO2 emissions CH4 is the larger concern with natural gas This paper explains it: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.0c00437 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.0c00437