4 ms·

In what way is Uber an employer where Upwork is not?

by missedthecue 4y ago

barbazoo 4y ago
Have Swiss courts decided otherwise? I can't find anything indicating they have.
- nilsbunger 4y ago
  I can't speak to Swiss courts, but in the US, Uber is losing many of these battles, while Upwork is not. It seems clear to me that using Upwork doesn't change whether a particular job you farm out is a contract job or employee job. Your primary relationship as a buyer is with the seller (the freelancer). It's more murky with Uber but it would be nice to have a clearer "test" to understand what makes Uber an employer vs a contract facilitator.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    I think the ABC test that was proposed by the Supreme Court of California is fairly straightforward: https://www.labor.ca.gov/employmentstatus/abctest/ https://www.labor.ca.gov/employmentstatus/abctest/ Uber and the like did successfully convince the electorate to specifically exempt rideshare and delivery from the test, though.
    - nilsbunger 4y ago
      The confusing part of the ABC test is what is "in the entity’s usual course of business" - the "B" clause. What makes Convoy not in the business of transportation, while Uber is? What would Uber need to change to be treated like Convoy?
  - tempsy 4y ago
    how is Uber losing battles in the US? in the last big ballot measure in California they successfully passed a prop that shielded them from identifying drivers as employees
nilsbunger 4y ago
Two big differences are that Uber sets the price, and the customer doesn't pick an individual driver since they're a commoditized supply. But other markets like freight brokers have the same behavior I believe, and no one is saying truckers are employees of Convoy. It would be interesting to consider what would need to change for Uber drivers to be clearly considered as contractors.
- dgb23 4y ago
  I think the biggest factors for real contractors are: - leverage and autonomy in all aspects - multiple, changing sources of income - a personal brand to some degree The last point doesn't have to be a full marketing budget, it can be very informal.
  - 6510 4y ago
    At least 2 clients per year with neither taking up 70+%
- xg15 4y ago
  Wasn't one argument that Uber micromanages the drivers to a considerable degree, specifically putting up rules how cars have to look, which branding to use, etc? Not a lawyer, but I imagine things like that might make it hard or impossible for drivers to work with other "customers" apart from Uber. This condition - being self-employed on paper but in practice being completely dependent on a single corporate customer - was termed Scheinselbstständigkeit in Germany and made illegal. Maybe Swiss are using a similar approach here. To my knowledge, Ryanair tried a similar businesses model about a decade ago, basically saying their pilots were independent contractors when in practice they were unable to work for anyone else but Ryanair. Edit: What I would find interesting is if Uber could claim they are operating a franchise. After all, the degree of micromanagement that is tolerated between franchisers and franchisees seems to be higher than between contractors and customers - see e.g. fast-food chains. (Not that i'd like Uber to use that loophole though, just curious if this would work)
  - Ekaros 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
paxys 4y ago
Upwork freelancers have almost total freedom in deciding whether to accept a job or not, the contract terms, rate, and lots more. There's very little in common between them and Uber drivers.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  But Uber drivers can see the pay rate, drive duration, destination, customer, and more before accepting the ride. It is true that in many places, Uber's algorithms set the price, but if Uber drivers set their own prices in the app, would everyone be satisfied?
  - paxys 4y ago
    No point discussing hypotheticals. Uber drivers cannot set their own price. They cannot negotiate the destination. They cannot choose to reject certain customers. They have to follow strict guidelines for what car they can drive and how it should look. If they don't accept (or cancel after accepting) too many rides, they get penalized or even kicked off the service entirely. There may be a future where Uber alters its service enough to satisfy regulators, but it clearly isn't interested in going that route.
    - worker_person 4y ago
      The city drift was really something with Uber. I would slowly end up on the other side of the Metro after a few hours. At one point I became the only driver in a city, and the only place accepting orders was McDonalds. So every 20 minutes I was back again for another pickup. Both me and workers found it hilarious. Being able to put no-go zones would have been awesome. Some Country clubs and many apartments take way to long.
    - lostmsu 4y ago
      You contradict the parent statement, that Uber drivers can see the rate before accepting the ride. Sounds like the ability to set their own price to me.
  - 4y ago
adamdusty 4y ago
Uber drivers cannot set their price for their work, which is a pretty big one I would think.

In what way is Uber an employer where Upwork is not?

barbazoo 4y ago

Have Swiss courts decided otherwise? I can't find anything indicating they have.

nilsbunger 4y ago
I can't speak to Swiss courts, but in the US, Uber is losing many of these battles, while Upwork is not. It seems clear to me that using Upwork doesn't change whether a particular job you farm out is a contract job or employee job. Your primary relationship as a buyer is with the seller (the freelancer). It's more murky with Uber but it would be nice to have a clearer "test" to understand what makes Uber an employer vs a contract facilitator.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  I think the ABC test that was proposed by the Supreme Court of California is fairly straightforward: https://www.labor.ca.gov/employmentstatus/abctest/ https://www.labor.ca.gov/employmentstatus/abctest/ Uber and the like did successfully convince the electorate to specifically exempt rideshare and delivery from the test, though.
  - nilsbunger 4y ago
    The confusing part of the ABC test is what is "in the entity’s usual course of business" - the "B" clause. What makes Convoy not in the business of transportation, while Uber is? What would Uber need to change to be treated like Convoy?
- tempsy 4y ago
  how is Uber losing battles in the US? in the last big ballot measure in California they successfully passed a prop that shielded them from identifying drivers as employees

nilsbunger 4y ago

Two big differences are that Uber sets the price, and the customer doesn't pick an individual driver since they're a commoditized supply. But other markets like freight brokers have the same behavior I believe, and no one is saying truckers are employees of Convoy. It would be interesting to consider what would need to change for Uber drivers to be clearly considered as contractors.

dgb23 4y ago
I think the biggest factors for real contractors are: - leverage and autonomy in all aspects - multiple, changing sources of income - a personal brand to some degree The last point doesn't have to be a full marketing budget, it can be very informal.
- 6510 4y ago
  At least 2 clients per year with neither taking up 70+%
xg15 4y ago
Wasn't one argument that Uber micromanages the drivers to a considerable degree, specifically putting up rules how cars have to look, which branding to use, etc? Not a lawyer, but I imagine things like that might make it hard or impossible for drivers to work with other "customers" apart from Uber. This condition - being self-employed on paper but in practice being completely dependent on a single corporate customer - was termed Scheinselbstständigkeit in Germany and made illegal. Maybe Swiss are using a similar approach here. To my knowledge, Ryanair tried a similar businesses model about a decade ago, basically saying their pilots were independent contractors when in practice they were unable to work for anyone else but Ryanair. Edit: What I would find interesting is if Uber could claim they are operating a franchise. After all, the degree of micromanagement that is tolerated between franchisers and franchisees seems to be higher than between contractors and customers - see e.g. fast-food chains. (Not that i'd like Uber to use that loophole though, just curious if this would work)
- Ekaros 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

paxys 4y ago

Upwork freelancers have almost total freedom in deciding whether to accept a job or not, the contract terms, rate, and lots more. There's very little in common between them and Uber drivers.

missedthecue 4y ago
But Uber drivers can see the pay rate, drive duration, destination, customer, and more before accepting the ride. It is true that in many places, Uber's algorithms set the price, but if Uber drivers set their own prices in the app, would everyone be satisfied?
- paxys 4y ago
  No point discussing hypotheticals. Uber drivers cannot set their own price. They cannot negotiate the destination. They cannot choose to reject certain customers. They have to follow strict guidelines for what car they can drive and how it should look. If they don't accept (or cancel after accepting) too many rides, they get penalized or even kicked off the service entirely. There may be a future where Uber alters its service enough to satisfy regulators, but it clearly isn't interested in going that route.
  - worker_person 4y ago
    The city drift was really something with Uber. I would slowly end up on the other side of the Metro after a few hours. At one point I became the only driver in a city, and the only place accepting orders was McDonalds. So every 20 minutes I was back again for another pickup. Both me and workers found it hilarious. Being able to put no-go zones would have been awesome. Some Country clubs and many apartments take way to long.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    You contradict the parent statement, that Uber drivers can see the rate before accepting the ride. Sounds like the ability to set their own price to me.
- 4y ago

adamdusty 4y ago

Uber drivers cannot set their price for their work, which is a pretty big one I would think.