4 ms·

I think we've recently had two "bloodless" coups, one in 2000 and one in 2016. In both cases, the loser, the one that did not receive the most votes, was made P

I think we've recently had two "bloodless" coups, one in 2000 and one in 2016. In both cases, the loser, the one that did not receive the most votes, was made President. The result seems to be deregulation leading to global financial crisis.

more_corn 4y ago
Except these situations followed the rules of our democracy. They were legal transfers of power. Compare to the outgoing president’s attempt to overturn a fair election after the 2020 election. That one was a coup attempt.
- Maursault 4y ago
  The rules of democracy do not permit fraud, which is exactly how Republicans get elected. Bush did not win in Florida in 2000, the recount was stopped and the FL Supreme Court incorrectly declared Bush winner. Eventually we learned that Gore won FL by over 20K votes. A President winning the Electoral College and losing the popular vote has only occurred 5 times. Two of them were Bush and Trump.
  - ironmagma 4y ago
    All our presidents have been corrupt as all get-out. If those are the leaders of coups, those are some pretty tame and un-revolutionary coups.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      The first 6 US Presidents were decent, incorruptible men. Also, Abraham Lincoln is notable for his suffering, winning the Civil War and freeing the slaves. And, regardless of politics, anyone can see Jimmy Carter is a saint. He could be the first and last US President to be beatified and canonized... but let's hope it will be awhile before that occurs.
      - ironmagma 4y ago
        I'm talking about recent presidents, especially the ones you claim came to power as result of a coup.
  - MrMan 4y ago
    What happened in FL 2000 was pretty insane and more insane for Supreme Court to enable it.
  - troon-lover 4y ago
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Your argument boils down to "under a different set of rules, someone else would have won". So what? That's not fraud; that's rules you lost fair and square under.
    - Maursault 4y ago
  - tunesmith 4y ago
    Ok, what study calculated over 20K votes? The various studies mentioned in wikipedia never go above 1,000 votes, no matter how they look at the ballots.
- Jsebast23 4y ago
  - jonahbenton 4y ago
    The Q is strong in this one.
  - squidbeak 4y ago
    I've heard murmurs about this, but never seen an evidenced report. Could you provide some links for further reading?
    - the_third_wave 4y ago
      Maybe he is referring to the video evidence showing suitcases with ballots being removed from under a table which seemed to be counted without the presence of watchers? I do seem to remember that video doing the rounds, this happened in Georgia if I'm not mistaken. The videos are probably still available somewhere. As an outsider I don't have that much skin in the game when it comes to elections in the USA - not 'no skin' since we here in Europe are exposed in many ways to the rise and fall of the USA as a major economical and military power. I do get the impression that the media in the USA are extremely partisan and mostly seem to side with the DNC position. Especially the major news publishers - whether they be publishing in print like the NYT and WaPo or via cable and 'net like CNN and MSNBC - seem to act like they are the communications division of the DNC instead of independent publishers. The recent departure of the Whitehouse press secretary to one of those networks only serves to underline this all-too-close relationship. This makes it hard to talk about 'fair' elections given that a sizeable percentage of the population depend on these outlets for their information. Partisan media is not a problem limited to the USA but it is exacerbated by what is in effect a two-party system which has split the media market into a "Democrat" and "Republican" side with the former seemingly being dominant.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
godelski 4y ago
Are you really suggesting that winning the electoral college vote but not the popular vote is akin to a coup? This is a very dangerous notion. They followed the rules of the land and there was peaceful transfer of power. Please don't exaggerate in this manner, it is not acting in good faith.
- Maursault 4y ago
  The problem here is not the Electoral College, though it does have issues. In 2000 Bush only "won" due to the fraudulent actions of Florida Republicans, including FL Secretary of State, Katherine Harris. We see the same exact shenanigans during the 2016 election with Republicans in state power invalidating mail in ballet votes, preventing Blacks and minorities from voting, etc. Nearly every election we see Republican shenanigans, trying to stifle minorities from voting and desperately invalidating votes for Democrats. By and large the problem is with the Republicans, who have been in minority for more than 20 years, and executing their own "minority rule" by whatever means necessary, including using absurd falsehoods and outright fraud. If DC and Puerto Rico were granted statehood, which is only Constitutional and fair, we'd never see another Republican President ever again, nor a Republican controlled Senate. Conversely, if everyone always voted in their personal economic interests, we'd never see another Republican elected to any office, anywhere. But as it is, 99% of the Republican Party always votes adversely to their personal economic interests, whether it be for economically irrelevant distractions such as abortion or 2nd Amendment issues, or for the delusion that someday they will be rich, and voting in the interests of the rich at their own economic expense. It really is absurd, especially because Republican administrations are responsible for all the economic recessions in the last 45 years. Wake up people! Stop propping up the rich at the expense of your own personal economic interests! If you earn less than $400K/yr, you are a fool to vote Republican, and you are hurting America, and yourself.

more_corn 4y ago

Except these situations followed the rules of our democracy. They were legal transfers of power. Compare to the outgoing president’s attempt to overturn a fair election after the 2020 election. That one was a coup attempt.

Maursault 4y ago
The rules of democracy do not permit fraud, which is exactly how Republicans get elected. Bush did not win in Florida in 2000, the recount was stopped and the FL Supreme Court incorrectly declared Bush winner. Eventually we learned that Gore won FL by over 20K votes. A President winning the Electoral College and losing the popular vote has only occurred 5 times. Two of them were Bush and Trump.
- ironmagma 4y ago
  All our presidents have been corrupt as all get-out. If those are the leaders of coups, those are some pretty tame and un-revolutionary coups.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    The first 6 US Presidents were decent, incorruptible men. Also, Abraham Lincoln is notable for his suffering, winning the Civil War and freeing the slaves. And, regardless of politics, anyone can see Jimmy Carter is a saint. He could be the first and last US President to be beatified and canonized... but let's hope it will be awhile before that occurs.
    - ironmagma 4y ago
      I'm talking about recent presidents, especially the ones you claim came to power as result of a coup.
- MrMan 4y ago
  What happened in FL 2000 was pretty insane and more insane for Supreme Court to enable it.
- troon-lover 4y ago
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Your argument boils down to "under a different set of rules, someone else would have won". So what? That's not fraud; that's rules you lost fair and square under.
  - Maursault 4y ago
- tunesmith 4y ago
  Ok, what study calculated over 20K votes? The various studies mentioned in wikipedia never go above 1,000 votes, no matter how they look at the ballots.
Jsebast23 4y ago
- jonahbenton 4y ago
  The Q is strong in this one.
- squidbeak 4y ago
  I've heard murmurs about this, but never seen an evidenced report. Could you provide some links for further reading?
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    Maybe he is referring to the video evidence showing suitcases with ballots being removed from under a table which seemed to be counted without the presence of watchers? I do seem to remember that video doing the rounds, this happened in Georgia if I'm not mistaken. The videos are probably still available somewhere. As an outsider I don't have that much skin in the game when it comes to elections in the USA - not 'no skin' since we here in Europe are exposed in many ways to the rise and fall of the USA as a major economical and military power. I do get the impression that the media in the USA are extremely partisan and mostly seem to side with the DNC position. Especially the major news publishers - whether they be publishing in print like the NYT and WaPo or via cable and 'net like CNN and MSNBC - seem to act like they are the communications division of the DNC instead of independent publishers. The recent departure of the Whitehouse press secretary to one of those networks only serves to underline this all-too-close relationship. This makes it hard to talk about 'fair' elections given that a sizeable percentage of the population depend on these outlets for their information. Partisan media is not a problem limited to the USA but it is exacerbated by what is in effect a two-party system which has split the media market into a "Democrat" and "Republican" side with the former seemingly being dominant.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

godelski 4y ago

Are you really suggesting that winning the electoral college vote but not the popular vote is akin to a coup? This is a very dangerous notion. They followed the rules of the land and there was peaceful transfer of power. Please don't exaggerate in this manner, it is not acting in good faith.

Maursault 4y ago
The problem here is not the Electoral College, though it does have issues. In 2000 Bush only "won" due to the fraudulent actions of Florida Republicans, including FL Secretary of State, Katherine Harris. We see the same exact shenanigans during the 2016 election with Republicans in state power invalidating mail in ballet votes, preventing Blacks and minorities from voting, etc. Nearly every election we see Republican shenanigans, trying to stifle minorities from voting and desperately invalidating votes for Democrats. By and large the problem is with the Republicans, who have been in minority for more than 20 years, and executing their own "minority rule" by whatever means necessary, including using absurd falsehoods and outright fraud. If DC and Puerto Rico were granted statehood, which is only Constitutional and fair, we'd never see another Republican President ever again, nor a Republican controlled Senate. Conversely, if everyone always voted in their personal economic interests, we'd never see another Republican elected to any office, anywhere. But as it is, 99% of the Republican Party always votes adversely to their personal economic interests, whether it be for economically irrelevant distractions such as abortion or 2nd Amendment issues, or for the delusion that someday they will be rich, and voting in the interests of the rich at their own economic expense. It really is absurd, especially because Republican administrations are responsible for all the economic recessions in the last 45 years. Wake up people! Stop propping up the rich at the expense of your own personal economic interests! If you earn less than $400K/yr, you are a fool to vote Republican, and you are hurting America, and yourself.