9 ms·

Uber loses appeal as top Swiss court rules company is an employer

121 points by sschueller 4y ago

missedthecue 4y ago
In what way is Uber an employer where Upwork is not?
- barbazoo 4y ago
  Have Swiss courts decided otherwise? I can't find anything indicating they have.
  - nilsbunger 4y ago
    I can't speak to Swiss courts, but in the US, Uber is losing many of these battles, while Upwork is not. It seems clear to me that using Upwork doesn't change whether a particular job you farm out is a contract job or employee job. Your primary relationship as a buyer is with the seller (the freelancer). It's more murky with Uber but it would be nice to have a clearer "test" to understand what makes Uber an employer vs a contract facilitator.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      I think the ABC test that was proposed by the Supreme Court of California is fairly straightforward: https://www.labor.ca.gov/employmentstatus/abctest/ https://www.labor.ca.gov/employmentstatus/abctest/ Uber and the like did successfully convince the electorate to specifically exempt rideshare and delivery from the test, though.
      - nilsbunger 4y ago
        The confusing part of the ABC test is what is "in the entity’s usual course of business" - the "B" clause. What makes Convoy not in the business of transportation, while Uber is? What would Uber need to change to be treated like Convoy?
    - tempsy 4y ago
      how is Uber losing battles in the US? in the last big ballot measure in California they successfully passed a prop that shielded them from identifying drivers as employees
- nilsbunger 4y ago
  Two big differences are that Uber sets the price, and the customer doesn't pick an individual driver since they're a commoditized supply. But other markets like freight brokers have the same behavior I believe, and no one is saying truckers are employees of Convoy. It would be interesting to consider what would need to change for Uber drivers to be clearly considered as contractors.
  - dgb23 4y ago
    I think the biggest factors for real contractors are: - leverage and autonomy in all aspects - multiple, changing sources of income - a personal brand to some degree The last point doesn't have to be a full marketing budget, it can be very informal.
    - 6510 4y ago
      At least 2 clients per year with neither taking up 70+%
  - xg15 4y ago
    Wasn't one argument that Uber micromanages the drivers to a considerable degree, specifically putting up rules how cars have to look, which branding to use, etc? Not a lawyer, but I imagine things like that might make it hard or impossible for drivers to work with other "customers" apart from Uber. This condition - being self-employed on paper but in practice being completely dependent on a single corporate customer - was termed Scheinselbstständigkeit in Germany and made illegal. Maybe Swiss are using a similar approach here. To my knowledge, Ryanair tried a similar businesses model about a decade ago, basically saying their pilots were independent contractors when in practice they were unable to work for anyone else but Ryanair. Edit: What I would find interesting is if Uber could claim they are operating a franchise. After all, the degree of micromanagement that is tolerated between franchisers and franchisees seems to be higher than between contractors and customers - see e.g. fast-food chains. (Not that i'd like Uber to use that loophole though, just curious if this would work)
    - Ekaros 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- paxys 4y ago
  Upwork freelancers have almost total freedom in deciding whether to accept a job or not, the contract terms, rate, and lots more. There's very little in common between them and Uber drivers.
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    But Uber drivers can see the pay rate, drive duration, destination, customer, and more before accepting the ride. It is true that in many places, Uber's algorithms set the price, but if Uber drivers set their own prices in the app, would everyone be satisfied?
    - paxys 4y ago
      No point discussing hypotheticals. Uber drivers cannot set their own price. They cannot negotiate the destination. They cannot choose to reject certain customers. They have to follow strict guidelines for what car they can drive and how it should look. If they don't accept (or cancel after accepting) too many rides, they get penalized or even kicked off the service entirely. There may be a future where Uber alters its service enough to satisfy regulators, but it clearly isn't interested in going that route.
      - worker_person 4y ago
        The city drift was really something with Uber. I would slowly end up on the other side of the Metro after a few hours. At one point I became the only driver in a city, and the only place accepting orders was McDonalds. So every 20 minutes I was back again for another pickup. Both me and workers found it hilarious. Being able to put no-go zones would have been awesome. Some Country clubs and many apartments take way to long.
      - lostmsu 4y ago
        You contradict the parent statement, that Uber drivers can see the rate before accepting the ride. Sounds like the ability to set their own price to me.
    - 4y ago
- adamdusty 4y ago
  Uber drivers cannot set their price for their work, which is a pretty big one I would think.
sschueller 4y ago
According to the nightly news. [1] Geneva will halt all uber taxis by tomorrow until all drivers have an employment contract as well as all back owed social security payments in the amount around 100-200 million is paid by Uber. The union estimates the total amount owed to drivers and state is around 500 million to 1 billion Swiss Francs. The Unia union is now urging other Kantons to join Geneva as the courts have ruled with in the next three months. [1] https://www.srf.ch/play/tv/redirect/detail/fcd14ac8-d82e-45d6-a812-0a72f904b2c2 https://www.srf.ch/play/tv/redirect/detail/fcd14ac8-d82e-45d...
- Ekaros 4y ago
  So will Uber try to exit Swiss market after this? And if they do how easy it is for the employees to get those wages?
  - xkcd1963 4y ago
    Switzerland is a very lucrative market, I don't think they will leave.
    - EduardoBautista 4y ago
      Does Uber earn a profit in any market?
      - chrischen 4y ago
        There’s no reason their unit economics don’t work or else taxis before Uber would never have existed.
        Ekaros 4y ago
        Big question with Uber is that can the live on the margins there is in taxi-business. Is there enough for them to extract as they currently spend money...
        scarface74 4y ago
aidenn0 4y ago
Uber just needs to trick Swiss citizens into amending the constitution to treat them as not an employer like they did in California.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  This is my favorite part of the game
- jeffrallen 4y ago
  Swiss citizens are not pigeons.
  - smnrchrds 4y ago
    Californians are?
    - stevehawk 4y ago
      they're definitely not as bright as they think they are
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    Swiss citizens have made really really stupid choices when it comes to their referendums. Swiss citizens are also not immune to culture war. The burqa ban literally was only going to impact ~50 people in the entire country and they spent that much money and time discussing this. Switzerland hasn't been targeted by big business interests as much to sway their votes. The second they are it's gonna turn into chaos just like other places.
- paxys 4y ago
  Would be hilarious to see them try American style advertising and lobbying to influence local Swiss politics. They would get thrown out of the country so quick..
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
baisq 4y ago
Say what you will, but this just hurts consumers.
- mping 4y ago
  If that is the price to pay for drivers to get treated fairly, so be it.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Also it is not like having essentially private driver is human right. It is always a trade-off and such work should be reasonably compensated in a way that one doing it can afford reasonable living. Hard concept for many in USA...
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Well, if not being allowed to exploit your workers hurts consumers, then either consumers have to pay more, or your business shouldn't exist. In fact, no business should exist that has "exploit your workers" as a necessary part of the business model.
- rabite 4y ago
  So do child labor laws. Think of how much cheaper metals and coal would be if we could have children work in the mines again!
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    And OSHA... Why do employers need to pay for protective gear? Or for health-care, or for many other things... Just how much cheaper things could be if we did out all of that pesky regulation.
  - baisq 4y ago
    Children cannot consent, adults can.
    - aaomidi 4y ago
aphroz 4y ago
Having used Uber in Geneva it was already quite difficult to get a driver and I think the only advantage people see in Uber nowadays is that you can use an app to order your drive and pay. It was not so much cheaper compared to regular taxi. I see this trend not only in Switzerland.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  You must have had bad luck, there are usually tons of drivers (not at 3am though), and prices are a bit lower than taxis (20-50%). Please bear in mind Geneva is tiny, albeit cosmopolitan place - only around 200k people live in Geneva city. So you can't expect same service density as ie NY or London.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Uber is usually substantially more expensive than taxis (and way less convenient) at LAX.
  - aperson_hello 4y ago
    In the middle of the country, it actually shows up, unlike taxis. And is pretty competitive price-wise. But the actually showing up part is why it matters, especially in poorer (i.e., Blacker) areas where taxi companies will actively discriminate.
jeffrallen 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN.
  - jeffrallen 4y ago
    You're right. But this post's flag and 2 points show that this is a view shared by several people here. Not so much the Swiss part, but the fact that Uber needs a swift kick in the democracy.
    - dang 4y ago
      Sure, but the point of HN is to be interesting (specifically, to gratify intellectual curiosity), and unsubstantive comments undermine that no matter how many people agree with them. Actually, the larger that number is, the worse the effect they have. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
It's funny that there was ever a question they were an employer lol.
- franczesko 4y ago
  The allergy of American companies to commitment and hiring people will never cease to amaze me.
toma_caliente 4y ago
The internet back and forth on this topic is interesting because I find it completely removed from how Uber drivers feel. Speaking from an American perspective, I take Uber and Lyft pretty frequently and I ask every single driver I ride with how they feel and almost unaminously they say they prefer being contract because they can just take rides whenever they please. Most people, including myself, seem to be under the impression that if they are employees then Uber dictates how much they have to drive which drivers seem to not want. At least drivers I've spoken to in the states.
- rileymat2 4y ago
  > they say they prefer being contract because they can just take rides whenever they please. But this has nothing to do with any statutory relationship, beyond possible overtime rules. Employees could also be structured as such.
  - rileymat2 4y ago
    For example, in 2000 I worked as a census worker, I was able to work whenever I wanted and do as much as I wanted for the day.
  - ahallock 4y ago
    Contracting rules are very much on your side, being able to work the hours you want. Being an employee would give the employer more control over you. I don't understand why people don't get this. Contractors really valuable this flexibility.
- mijamo 4y ago
  I don't think being an employee means in any way that the employer can dictate how much and when you work. It all depends of the employment contract.
- phphphphp 4y ago
  the idea that flexibility of employment is a binary is a tool Uber are using to shape the perception of the issue. Nothing stops Uber from offering security and flexibility, except the economics — which is Ubers burden to carry, not drivers.
tw600040 4y ago
Genuine question, not snark. What if someone wants to be a contractor. In this case the govt wouldn't allow them to be? Say if someone doesn't want to commit to this as anemployment and wants to drive only when he feels like it?
- franczesko 4y ago
  There would be no logical reason to be a contractor. B2B is also a model of cooperation Uber utilizes, but then you're basically running a company on your own.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Nothing actually stops that. Employers and employees are free to negotiate shifts and hours to work, this can even have mostly automated approval from employer. The issue is that employer can't just ignore the taxes, pensions, fees and such in relationship where employer clearly isn't in contractor like position.
  - ahallock 4y ago
    The employer holds the leverage in the relationship. This negotiation is a fairy tale. At least being a contractor you are guaranteed this right.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      Depends on employment contract, but I would estimate in case of relationship like Uber the leverage on driver side is zero. So really not much to lose.
- dfxm12 4y ago
  The government ruled that in the way Uber operates, in its one size fits all agreement with drivers, its drivers fit the definition of employee. If a driver wants to be a contractor with Uber, they'd have to have a different agreement with Uber and Uber would have to create special rules for that contractor that meet the standards for contractor under local law. I don't think Uber is interested in managing individual (or even multiple boilerplate) contracts, and that's not even to say whether or not it would be beneficial economically for them.
ahallock 4y ago
What if I don't want to be an employee?
bpye 4y ago
For reference - the UK made a similar ruling last year [0]. They did not exit the market, and have begun to fulfil their obligations [1, 2]. [0] - https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/uk-supreme-court-says-uber-drivers-are-not-independent-contractors/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/uk-supreme-court... [1] - https://www.uber.com/en-GB/blog/worker-pension-scheme-faqs/ https://www.uber.com/en-GB/blog/worker-pension-scheme-faqs/ [2] - https://www.uber.com/en-GB/blog/driver-worker-faq/ https://www.uber.com/en-GB/blog/driver-worker-faq/
aperson_hello 4y ago
This is a bandaid over the core issue: benefits shouldn't be tied to employers. Employees should be free to work wherever and however they please without the worry that they'll have to pay for health insurance, sick leave, or social security schemes themselves.
musicale 4y ago
What madness is this? Next they'll start saying that companies that offer taxi services via an app are actually taxi companies, that daily lodging rental companies that use apps are actually hotel companies, that companies that offer telephone services over cable or fiber are actually telephone companies, that financial companies that use cryptocurrency are actually financial companies, and that tobacco vaping companies are actually tobacco companies. It's like when they tried to trick people into thinking that PayPal was actually a bank simply because it offers banking services. Good thing they sorted that out or you'd probably end up with FDIC insurance on your deposits.
- xg15 4y ago
  I find it interesting that PayPal Europe is actually a bank (because they couldn't do business in EU otherwise) while PayPal in the US is just a "payment processor" or something.

121 points by sschueller 4y ago

missedthecue 4y ago

In what way is Uber an employer where Upwork is not?

barbazoo 4y ago
Have Swiss courts decided otherwise? I can't find anything indicating they have.
- nilsbunger 4y ago
  I can't speak to Swiss courts, but in the US, Uber is losing many of these battles, while Upwork is not. It seems clear to me that using Upwork doesn't change whether a particular job you farm out is a contract job or employee job. Your primary relationship as a buyer is with the seller (the freelancer). It's more murky with Uber but it would be nice to have a clearer "test" to understand what makes Uber an employer vs a contract facilitator.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    I think the ABC test that was proposed by the Supreme Court of California is fairly straightforward: https://www.labor.ca.gov/employmentstatus/abctest/ https://www.labor.ca.gov/employmentstatus/abctest/ Uber and the like did successfully convince the electorate to specifically exempt rideshare and delivery from the test, though.
    - nilsbunger 4y ago
      The confusing part of the ABC test is what is "in the entity’s usual course of business" - the "B" clause. What makes Convoy not in the business of transportation, while Uber is? What would Uber need to change to be treated like Convoy?
  - tempsy 4y ago
    how is Uber losing battles in the US? in the last big ballot measure in California they successfully passed a prop that shielded them from identifying drivers as employees
nilsbunger 4y ago
Two big differences are that Uber sets the price, and the customer doesn't pick an individual driver since they're a commoditized supply. But other markets like freight brokers have the same behavior I believe, and no one is saying truckers are employees of Convoy. It would be interesting to consider what would need to change for Uber drivers to be clearly considered as contractors.
- dgb23 4y ago
  I think the biggest factors for real contractors are: - leverage and autonomy in all aspects - multiple, changing sources of income - a personal brand to some degree The last point doesn't have to be a full marketing budget, it can be very informal.
  - 6510 4y ago
    At least 2 clients per year with neither taking up 70+%
- xg15 4y ago
  Wasn't one argument that Uber micromanages the drivers to a considerable degree, specifically putting up rules how cars have to look, which branding to use, etc? Not a lawyer, but I imagine things like that might make it hard or impossible for drivers to work with other "customers" apart from Uber. This condition - being self-employed on paper but in practice being completely dependent on a single corporate customer - was termed Scheinselbstständigkeit in Germany and made illegal. Maybe Swiss are using a similar approach here. To my knowledge, Ryanair tried a similar businesses model about a decade ago, basically saying their pilots were independent contractors when in practice they were unable to work for anyone else but Ryanair. Edit: What I would find interesting is if Uber could claim they are operating a franchise. After all, the degree of micromanagement that is tolerated between franchisers and franchisees seems to be higher than between contractors and customers - see e.g. fast-food chains. (Not that i'd like Uber to use that loophole though, just curious if this would work)
  - Ekaros 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
paxys 4y ago
Upwork freelancers have almost total freedom in deciding whether to accept a job or not, the contract terms, rate, and lots more. There's very little in common between them and Uber drivers.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  But Uber drivers can see the pay rate, drive duration, destination, customer, and more before accepting the ride. It is true that in many places, Uber's algorithms set the price, but if Uber drivers set their own prices in the app, would everyone be satisfied?
  - paxys 4y ago
    No point discussing hypotheticals. Uber drivers cannot set their own price. They cannot negotiate the destination. They cannot choose to reject certain customers. They have to follow strict guidelines for what car they can drive and how it should look. If they don't accept (or cancel after accepting) too many rides, they get penalized or even kicked off the service entirely. There may be a future where Uber alters its service enough to satisfy regulators, but it clearly isn't interested in going that route.
    - worker_person 4y ago
      The city drift was really something with Uber. I would slowly end up on the other side of the Metro after a few hours. At one point I became the only driver in a city, and the only place accepting orders was McDonalds. So every 20 minutes I was back again for another pickup. Both me and workers found it hilarious. Being able to put no-go zones would have been awesome. Some Country clubs and many apartments take way to long.
    - lostmsu 4y ago
      You contradict the parent statement, that Uber drivers can see the rate before accepting the ride. Sounds like the ability to set their own price to me.
  - 4y ago
adamdusty 4y ago
Uber drivers cannot set their price for their work, which is a pretty big one I would think.

sschueller 4y ago

According to the nightly news. [1] Geneva will halt all uber taxis by tomorrow until all drivers have an employment contract as well as all back owed social security payments in the amount around 100-200 million is paid by Uber. The union estimates the total amount owed to drivers and state is around 500 million to 1 billion Swiss Francs. The Unia union is now urging other Kantons to join Geneva as the courts have ruled with in the next three months. [1] https://www.srf.ch/play/tv/redirect/detail/fcd14ac8-d82e-45d6-a812-0a72f904b2c2 https://www.srf.ch/play/tv/redirect/detail/fcd14ac8-d82e-45d...

Ekaros 4y ago
So will Uber try to exit Swiss market after this? And if they do how easy it is for the employees to get those wages?
- xkcd1963 4y ago
  Switzerland is a very lucrative market, I don't think they will leave.
  - EduardoBautista 4y ago
    Does Uber earn a profit in any market?
    - chrischen 4y ago
      There’s no reason their unit economics don’t work or else taxis before Uber would never have existed.
      - Ekaros 4y ago
        Big question with Uber is that can the live on the margins there is in taxi-business. Is there enough for them to extract as they currently spend money...
      - scarface74 4y ago

aidenn0 4y ago

Uber just needs to trick Swiss citizens into amending the constitution to treat them as not an employer like they did in California.

yieldcrv 4y ago
This is my favorite part of the game
jeffrallen 4y ago
Swiss citizens are not pigeons.
- smnrchrds 4y ago
  Californians are?
  - stevehawk 4y ago
    they're definitely not as bright as they think they are
- aaomidi 4y ago
  Swiss citizens have made really really stupid choices when it comes to their referendums. Swiss citizens are also not immune to culture war. The burqa ban literally was only going to impact ~50 people in the entire country and they spent that much money and time discussing this. Switzerland hasn't been targeted by big business interests as much to sway their votes. The second they are it's gonna turn into chaos just like other places.
paxys 4y ago
Would be hilarious to see them try American style advertising and lobbying to influence local Swiss politics. They would get thrown out of the country so quick..
- yieldcrv 4y ago

baisq 4y ago

Say what you will, but this just hurts consumers.

mping 4y ago
If that is the price to pay for drivers to get treated fairly, so be it.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Also it is not like having essentially private driver is human right. It is always a trade-off and such work should be reasonably compensated in a way that one doing it can afford reasonable living. Hard concept for many in USA...
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Well, if not being allowed to exploit your workers hurts consumers, then either consumers have to pay more, or your business shouldn't exist. In fact, no business should exist that has "exploit your workers" as a necessary part of the business model.
rabite 4y ago
So do child labor laws. Think of how much cheaper metals and coal would be if we could have children work in the mines again!
- Ekaros 4y ago
  And OSHA... Why do employers need to pay for protective gear? Or for health-care, or for many other things... Just how much cheaper things could be if we did out all of that pesky regulation.
- baisq 4y ago
  Children cannot consent, adults can.
  - aaomidi 4y ago

aphroz 4y ago

Having used Uber in Geneva it was already quite difficult to get a driver and I think the only advantage people see in Uber nowadays is that you can use an app to order your drive and pay. It was not so much cheaper compared to regular taxi. I see this trend not only in Switzerland.

saiya-jin 4y ago
You must have had bad luck, there are usually tons of drivers (not at 3am though), and prices are a bit lower than taxis (20-50%). Please bear in mind Geneva is tiny, albeit cosmopolitan place - only around 200k people live in Geneva city. So you can't expect same service density as ie NY or London.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Uber is usually substantially more expensive than taxis (and way less convenient) at LAX.
- aperson_hello 4y ago
  In the middle of the country, it actually shows up, unlike taxis. And is pretty competitive price-wise. But the actually showing up part is why it matters, especially in poorer (i.e., Blacker) areas where taxi companies will actively discriminate.

jeffrallen 4y ago

dang 4y ago
Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN.
- jeffrallen 4y ago
  You're right. But this post's flag and 2 points show that this is a view shared by several people here. Not so much the Swiss part, but the fact that Uber needs a swift kick in the democracy.
  - dang 4y ago
    Sure, but the point of HN is to be interesting (specifically, to gratify intellectual curiosity), and unsubstantive comments undermine that no matter how many people agree with them. Actually, the larger that number is, the worse the effect they have. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

JohnJamesRambo 4y ago

It's funny that there was ever a question they were an employer lol.

franczesko 4y ago
The allergy of American companies to commitment and hiring people will never cease to amaze me.

toma_caliente 4y ago

The internet back and forth on this topic is interesting because I find it completely removed from how Uber drivers feel. Speaking from an American perspective, I take Uber and Lyft pretty frequently and I ask every single driver I ride with how they feel and almost unaminously they say they prefer being contract because they can just take rides whenever they please. Most people, including myself, seem to be under the impression that if they are employees then Uber dictates how much they have to drive which drivers seem to not want. At least drivers I've spoken to in the states.

rileymat2 4y ago
> they say they prefer being contract because they can just take rides whenever they please. But this has nothing to do with any statutory relationship, beyond possible overtime rules. Employees could also be structured as such.
- rileymat2 4y ago
  For example, in 2000 I worked as a census worker, I was able to work whenever I wanted and do as much as I wanted for the day.
- ahallock 4y ago
  Contracting rules are very much on your side, being able to work the hours you want. Being an employee would give the employer more control over you. I don't understand why people don't get this. Contractors really valuable this flexibility.
mijamo 4y ago
I don't think being an employee means in any way that the employer can dictate how much and when you work. It all depends of the employment contract.
phphphphp 4y ago
the idea that flexibility of employment is a binary is a tool Uber are using to shape the perception of the issue. Nothing stops Uber from offering security and flexibility, except the economics — which is Ubers burden to carry, not drivers.

tw600040 4y ago

Genuine question, not snark. What if someone wants to be a contractor. In this case the govt wouldn't allow them to be? Say if someone doesn't want to commit to this as anemployment and wants to drive only when he feels like it?

franczesko 4y ago
There would be no logical reason to be a contractor. B2B is also a model of cooperation Uber utilizes, but then you're basically running a company on your own.
Ekaros 4y ago
Nothing actually stops that. Employers and employees are free to negotiate shifts and hours to work, this can even have mostly automated approval from employer. The issue is that employer can't just ignore the taxes, pensions, fees and such in relationship where employer clearly isn't in contractor like position.
- ahallock 4y ago
  The employer holds the leverage in the relationship. This negotiation is a fairy tale. At least being a contractor you are guaranteed this right.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Depends on employment contract, but I would estimate in case of relationship like Uber the leverage on driver side is zero. So really not much to lose.
dfxm12 4y ago
The government ruled that in the way Uber operates, in its one size fits all agreement with drivers, its drivers fit the definition of employee. If a driver wants to be a contractor with Uber, they'd have to have a different agreement with Uber and Uber would have to create special rules for that contractor that meet the standards for contractor under local law. I don't think Uber is interested in managing individual (or even multiple boilerplate) contracts, and that's not even to say whether or not it would be beneficial economically for them.

ahallock 4y ago

What if I don't want to be an employee?

bpye 4y ago

For reference - the UK made a similar ruling last year [0]. They did not exit the market, and have begun to fulfil their obligations [1, 2]. [0] - https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/uk-supreme-court-says-uber-drivers-are-not-independent-contractors/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/uk-supreme-court... [1] - https://www.uber.com/en-GB/blog/worker-pension-scheme-faqs/ https://www.uber.com/en-GB/blog/worker-pension-scheme-faqs/ [2] - https://www.uber.com/en-GB/blog/driver-worker-faq/ https://www.uber.com/en-GB/blog/driver-worker-faq/

aperson_hello 4y ago

This is a bandaid over the core issue: benefits shouldn't be tied to employers. Employees should be free to work wherever and however they please without the worry that they'll have to pay for health insurance, sick leave, or social security schemes themselves.

musicale 4y ago

What madness is this? Next they'll start saying that companies that offer taxi services via an app are actually taxi companies, that daily lodging rental companies that use apps are actually hotel companies, that companies that offer telephone services over cable or fiber are actually telephone companies, that financial companies that use cryptocurrency are actually financial companies, and that tobacco vaping companies are actually tobacco companies. It's like when they tried to trick people into thinking that PayPal was actually a bank simply because it offers banking services. Good thing they sorted that out or you'd probably end up with FDIC insurance on your deposits.

xg15 4y ago
I find it interesting that PayPal Europe is actually a bank (because they couldn't do business in EU otherwise) while PayPal in the US is just a "payment processor" or something.