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Yeah, it's absolutely short sighted. Gas appliances are more efficient than electric appliances powered by natural gas fired power plants. While hydrogen might

by elil17 4y ago

Yeah, it's absolutely short sighted. Gas appliances are more efficient than electric appliances powered by natural gas fired power plants. While hydrogen might be a way's away (plus it requires redesigning everything), people (for example, Oberon fuels in California) are already mixing renewable dimethyl ether (similar to propane, but the central carbon atom is an oxygen atom) with propane in tanks for gas grills. Storing fuels is cheaper and better for the environment than storing electricity. Expanding the electric grid will be more challenging than repurposing the gas grid.

wolverine876 4y ago
Doesn't that omit the impact of natural gas on climate change?
- elil17 4y ago
  I mean it impacts the climate whether it’s burned in a burner or in a power plant. We shouldn’t do either, but if you stop just the appliances you’ll just end up burning more in a power plant.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > if you stop just the appliances you’ll just end up burning more in a power plant That power plant doesn't have to use natural gas.
    - elil17 4y ago
      Right but they do at the moment
      - wolverine876 4y ago
        Not all power plants do, and we can change those too, and if we want to ween ourselves off natural gas then we need to do the consumer end too.
kec 4y ago
This isn't really true. Electric heating is as close to 100% efficient as is practical in the real world. I would also be shocked to learn that gas turbines at a power plant extract fewer watts per unit of gas than a simple (likely poorly maintained) burner in a residential setting.
- elil17 4y ago
  That may be true for stoves where heat goes into the air but it’s not true for other appliances. Most modern gas furnaces have an efficiency of about 80%, meaning 20% of energy is lost as exhaust. Some newer systems have efficiencies as high as 98.5%, and older systems might go as low as 56% [1] Natural gas combined cycle plants (they have have multiple turbines for increased efficiency) around 50% efficiency (efficiency is limited by the thermodynamics of converting heat to electricity) [2] So even with the worst furnace and the best power plant, the furnace still has similar efficiency. In the average case, furnaces are more efficient. [1]: https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/furnaces-and-boilers https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/furnaces-and-boilers [2]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/natural-gas-combined-cycle https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/natural-gas...
  - HalcyonCowboy 4y ago
    This is not true since the vast majority of electric whole home heating units sold today are heat pumps, which are up to 300% efficient [1]. If the power generation and distribution is 33% or higher efficiency, then a heat pump will outperform a natural gas furnace operating at 100% efficiency. EDIT - Here's a video that explains it much better than I could, although it's a bit long, this YouTuber is great. [2] [1] https://tristate.coop/advantages-heat-pumps-energy-efficiency https://tristate.coop/advantages-heat-pumps-energy-efficienc... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEHFsO-XSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEHFsO-XSI
- gwbas1c 4y ago
  The best gas generators are (approx) 60% efficient. Gas furnaces are around 90% efficient. Electric heat pumps can go up to 300% efficient, and they don't care what kind of power source the grid uses.
goodpoint 4y ago
> Gas appliances are more efficient than electric appliances powered by natural gas fired power plants The very opposite is true. Gas cooking surfaces waste 75% of the heat into air.

by elil17 4y ago

wolverine876 4y ago

Doesn't that omit the impact of natural gas on climate change?

elil17 4y ago
I mean it impacts the climate whether it’s burned in a burner or in a power plant. We shouldn’t do either, but if you stop just the appliances you’ll just end up burning more in a power plant.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > if you stop just the appliances you’ll just end up burning more in a power plant That power plant doesn't have to use natural gas.
  - elil17 4y ago
    Right but they do at the moment
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      Not all power plants do, and we can change those too, and if we want to ween ourselves off natural gas then we need to do the consumer end too.

kec 4y ago

This isn't really true. Electric heating is as close to 100% efficient as is practical in the real world. I would also be shocked to learn that gas turbines at a power plant extract fewer watts per unit of gas than a simple (likely poorly maintained) burner in a residential setting.

elil17 4y ago
That may be true for stoves where heat goes into the air but it’s not true for other appliances. Most modern gas furnaces have an efficiency of about 80%, meaning 20% of energy is lost as exhaust. Some newer systems have efficiencies as high as 98.5%, and older systems might go as low as 56% [1] Natural gas combined cycle plants (they have have multiple turbines for increased efficiency) around 50% efficiency (efficiency is limited by the thermodynamics of converting heat to electricity) [2] So even with the worst furnace and the best power plant, the furnace still has similar efficiency. In the average case, furnaces are more efficient. [1]: https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/furnaces-and-boilers https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/furnaces-and-boilers [2]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/natural-gas-combined-cycle https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/natural-gas...
- HalcyonCowboy 4y ago
  This is not true since the vast majority of electric whole home heating units sold today are heat pumps, which are up to 300% efficient [1]. If the power generation and distribution is 33% or higher efficiency, then a heat pump will outperform a natural gas furnace operating at 100% efficiency. EDIT - Here's a video that explains it much better than I could, although it's a bit long, this YouTuber is great. [2] [1] https://tristate.coop/advantages-heat-pumps-energy-efficiency https://tristate.coop/advantages-heat-pumps-energy-efficienc... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEHFsO-XSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEHFsO-XSI
gwbas1c 4y ago
The best gas generators are (approx) 60% efficient. Gas furnaces are around 90% efficient. Electric heat pumps can go up to 300% efficient, and they don't care what kind of power source the grid uses.

goodpoint 4y ago

> Gas appliances are more efficient than electric appliances powered by natural gas fired power plants The very opposite is true. Gas cooking surfaces waste 75% of the heat into air.