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bit off topic but could it possible to create "virtual objects" that can be moved around, provide/detect tactility? I know I've been obsessing with this since I

bit off topic but could it possible to create "virtual objects" that can be moved around, provide/detect tactility? I know I've been obsessing with this since I read someones comment on here but you would essentially use sound waves to "conjure up" objects in a room that has ultrasound devices on walls, ceilings, floor etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOnxr9Ez_Kc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOnxr9Ez_Kc

marcusverus 4y ago
When interacting with a real (solid) object, you only ever interact with its surface. When you touch a ball, you feel its surface. If you press into the surface, you feel that resistance as increased pressure (near-instantaneously) and you gain a lot of information about he object by that sensation (consider the difference between poking a balloon vs. an anvil) and by the reaction of the object. With sonic "virtual objects", there would be no resistance, meaning you couldn't really interact with the object in a normal sense (your hand would just pass into/through it). Even if the "user" were to understand this, it seems like the range of experience would be very limited. Without any sensations associated with resistance, could you make a balloon feel any different than an anvil? I've spent some time thinking about this in the past, so please forgive the random tangent: IMO, the creation of virtual objects that can be interacted with and perceived as real objects will require a combination of haptic garments and exoskeletons. The haptic garments would manage any minor sensations (the fuzzy texture of a kiwi), while the exoskeleton would apply force / prevent motion. That way, if you try to poke a virtual balloon, you feel a minute jolt of resistance at the moment of contact. If you poke an anvil, you feel your finger come to a dead stop, with all of that force on your fingertip conveying the sensation of poking a heavy, stationary object. It seems like a suit could simulate a lot of object interactions. Imagine hefting a virtual stone in your hand. You feel its texture on the palm of your hand via the haptic glove, while the exo-suit conveys the weight as downward force, applied at the wrist, elbow, and shoulder joints.
- pokeymcsnatch 4y ago
  The virtual object could be relative to the person interacting with it rather than a stationary zone in space. With sound waves, for example, it could be something like a tightly focused beam combined with motion/finger/hand tracking... As your hand moves along the "object", the beam is constantly re-aimed (at the hand) and re-adjusted in real time to give you the sensation of feeling around the profile. No suit required.
  - upupandup 4y ago
    Creating tactile focal points in a specific 3D coordinate seems possible if we use the transducers described in this video. You can see that they are able to "place" tactility in specific 3D location. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QkbVr4J7CM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QkbVr4J7CM All that would be needed here would be an AR solution that projects an opaque hologram of a 3D object in the same location where tactility is being placed in mid air. What stops us from increasing the power of the transducers as to magnify the torque, pressure? Like parent's comment: anvil vs basketball. What is a safe and realistic range of pressure for anvil? Could such virtual object injure the user if dropped?
- upupandup 4y ago
  I agree a suit is the more immediately realizable tech but something that isn't so clunky like what Mr. Zuckerburg uses here. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oQig6L2BtOo https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oQig6L2BtOo There must be a way to provide torque and tension electronically in a suit. Millions of small points all over.
  - ge96 4y ago
    Localized linear pcb motors that push/pull on threads built into the suit
- tomcam 4y ago
  I wonder if an alternate, not-as-good-but-acceptable set of conventions would arise. The best weighted MIDI keyboard doesn’t have the responsiveness of a good grand piano, but great music can still be made with them. Same with electric vs acoustic violins.
JoshuaRedmond 4y ago
It definitely can be - I had a demo of Ultrahaptics' (now ultraleap) ultrasonic tactile system[0] 3 years back and you could definitely "touch" objects that weren't there. They only had the development kit out at the time - I now want to check out their new module to see how it's progressed! [0] - https://www.ultraleap.com/product/stratos-inspire/ https://www.ultraleap.com/product/stratos-inspire/
- upupandup 4y ago
  Pleasantly surprised they are still around since the whole MagicLeap fiasco
  - JoshuaRedmond 4y ago
    Which fiasco are you thinking of? Or could you be confusing Magic Leap[0] (the Augmented Reality headset) and Leap Motion[1] (the 3D motion controller) (admittedly I swap the names around all the time!) [0] - https://www.magicleap.com/en-us/ https://www.magicleap.com/en-us/ [1] - https://www.ultraleap.com/product/leap-motion-controller/ https://www.ultraleap.com/product/leap-motion-controller/
jononor 4y ago
Ultrasound transducer arrays can be used to create tactile sensations (haptics) using a fields projected in 3d. A recent Kickstarter for this type of device is Emerge[1], and a more mature company is Ultrahaptics[2]. Have not tried either though, so do not know how well it works in practice. Ultrasound can also be used for gesture sensing in 3d. Elliptic Labs is one of the companies in that space. mmwave radar is also an option here, along with optical methods. 1. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/emergehome/emerge-home-a-social-vr-experience-you-can-feel https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/emergehome/emerge-home-... 2. https://www.ultraleap.com/haptics/ https://www.ultraleap.com/haptics/

marcusverus 4y ago

When interacting with a real (solid) object, you only ever interact with its surface. When you touch a ball, you feel its surface. If you press into the surface, you feel that resistance as increased pressure (near-instantaneously) and you gain a lot of information about he object by that sensation (consider the difference between poking a balloon vs. an anvil) and by the reaction of the object. With sonic "virtual objects", there would be no resistance, meaning you couldn't really interact with the object in a normal sense (your hand would just pass into/through it). Even if the "user" were to understand this, it seems like the range of experience would be very limited. Without any sensations associated with resistance, could you make a balloon feel any different than an anvil? I've spent some time thinking about this in the past, so please forgive the random tangent: IMO, the creation of virtual objects that can be interacted with and perceived as real objects will require a combination of haptic garments and exoskeletons. The haptic garments would manage any minor sensations (the fuzzy texture of a kiwi), while the exoskeleton would apply force / prevent motion. That way, if you try to poke a virtual balloon, you feel a minute jolt of resistance at the moment of contact. If you poke an anvil, you feel your finger come to a dead stop, with all of that force on your fingertip conveying the sensation of poking a heavy, stationary object. It seems like a suit could simulate a lot of object interactions. Imagine hefting a virtual stone in your hand. You feel its texture on the palm of your hand via the haptic glove, while the exo-suit conveys the weight as downward force, applied at the wrist, elbow, and shoulder joints.

pokeymcsnatch 4y ago
The virtual object could be relative to the person interacting with it rather than a stationary zone in space. With sound waves, for example, it could be something like a tightly focused beam combined with motion/finger/hand tracking... As your hand moves along the "object", the beam is constantly re-aimed (at the hand) and re-adjusted in real time to give you the sensation of feeling around the profile. No suit required.
- upupandup 4y ago
  Creating tactile focal points in a specific 3D coordinate seems possible if we use the transducers described in this video. You can see that they are able to "place" tactility in specific 3D location. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QkbVr4J7CM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QkbVr4J7CM All that would be needed here would be an AR solution that projects an opaque hologram of a 3D object in the same location where tactility is being placed in mid air. What stops us from increasing the power of the transducers as to magnify the torque, pressure? Like parent's comment: anvil vs basketball. What is a safe and realistic range of pressure for anvil? Could such virtual object injure the user if dropped?
upupandup 4y ago
I agree a suit is the more immediately realizable tech but something that isn't so clunky like what Mr. Zuckerburg uses here. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oQig6L2BtOo https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oQig6L2BtOo There must be a way to provide torque and tension electronically in a suit. Millions of small points all over.
- ge96 4y ago
  Localized linear pcb motors that push/pull on threads built into the suit
tomcam 4y ago
I wonder if an alternate, not-as-good-but-acceptable set of conventions would arise. The best weighted MIDI keyboard doesn’t have the responsiveness of a good grand piano, but great music can still be made with them. Same with electric vs acoustic violins.

JoshuaRedmond 4y ago

It definitely can be - I had a demo of Ultrahaptics' (now ultraleap) ultrasonic tactile system[0] 3 years back and you could definitely "touch" objects that weren't there. They only had the development kit out at the time - I now want to check out their new module to see how it's progressed! [0] - https://www.ultraleap.com/product/stratos-inspire/ https://www.ultraleap.com/product/stratos-inspire/

upupandup 4y ago
Pleasantly surprised they are still around since the whole MagicLeap fiasco
- JoshuaRedmond 4y ago
  Which fiasco are you thinking of? Or could you be confusing Magic Leap[0] (the Augmented Reality headset) and Leap Motion[1] (the 3D motion controller) (admittedly I swap the names around all the time!) [0] - https://www.magicleap.com/en-us/ https://www.magicleap.com/en-us/ [1] - https://www.ultraleap.com/product/leap-motion-controller/ https://www.ultraleap.com/product/leap-motion-controller/

jononor 4y ago

Ultrasound transducer arrays can be used to create tactile sensations (haptics) using a fields projected in 3d. A recent Kickstarter for this type of device is Emerge[1], and a more mature company is Ultrahaptics[2]. Have not tried either though, so do not know how well it works in practice. Ultrasound can also be used for gesture sensing in 3d. Elliptic Labs is one of the companies in that space. mmwave radar is also an option here, along with optical methods. 1. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/emergehome/emerge-home-a-social-vr-experience-you-can-feel https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/emergehome/emerge-home-... 2. https://www.ultraleap.com/haptics/ https://www.ultraleap.com/haptics/