4 ms·

While this may be true from the perspective of upper management, it is a very shitty way to treat the people who work for you, or would like to.

by xmodem 4y ago

mjr00 4y ago
What's the alternative? Telling all of your employees "hey we're thinking about layoffs that may or may not happen, and we don't know who will be affected" would be a massive morale hit and make people leave. Until the final decision is made -- and this is a hard decision that everyone, including upper management, wants to avoid making until absolutely necessary -- it's best to keep it close to the chest. Just because you've planned for it doesn't mean you'll execute on it. Look at this situation, even. Elon says he's going to cut 10% of Tesla's jobs. You're a Tesla employee. Is your job on the chopping block? Should you start looking? Nearly every person at Tesla is now living with fear that they might not have a steady paycheck in a month. To me this is a way shittier situation because you're stuck in limbo for a month or more. Isn't it a lot better to have a single all-hands meeting where you announce layoffs, the people who are affected will be contacted by their manager with severance information, and the plan going forward? Rather than just having this stuff linger for months?
- Espressosaurus 4y ago
  Once you've started layoffs, the possibility that there will be layoffs in the future is much higher. Anybody at Tesla who doesn't get hit in the initial round should be thinking about what if there's a round 2. I'd personally be grabbing my parachute, or at least sizing one for myself. The long slow method gives more time for people to bail the hell out. As a worker, I think I prefer the time.
- akudha 4y ago
  this is a hard decision that everyone, including upper management I call bullshit on the inclusion of "upper management". To think upper management cares about anything other than short term profits (and their own bonuses) is just naive. When COVID hit, the company I worked for laid off 40 people (we were just a couple of hundred employees in total). You know how they laid them off? One morning they simply asked the sysadmin to turn off their logins. It is not a "hard decision" - to them, it is just like throwing away a chair or a table. Remember that dude who laid off 900 something people on a zoom call and shit talking them later? You mentioned morale, what do you think happens the morale of the people who found half of their (small) team laid off with zero warning, like it happened to my team? There may be exceptions of course, but it is safe to say most companies don't give a shit about their employees, even their star employees. I am not complaining about layoffs here (though the way they do it is cruel). Just pointing out that companies are not as heartbroken about it as you seem to think. It is just business
  - mjr00 4y ago
    I'm not going to pretend that layoffs are harder on upper management than employees or anything. Getting laid off sucks ass and there's no sugarcoating it. But thinking that being a C-level automatically means you're a Patrick Bateman style sociopath treating people like furniture is an immature take, especially for a forum like this, where so many people are entrepreneurs and upper management themselves. They're still people.
    - candiddevmike 4y ago
      You don't see those folks taking a paycut to keep the furniture around though.
    - rchaud 4y ago
      If you're at C-level at a company of Tesla's size, you are still a person, just compensated as though you were 50 persons. That is going to change how you're perceived, like it or not. Everyone is judged on the basis of their actions, not their words. When you're a CEO managing 10 people, you feel the weight of every firing. When you can tell your lieutenants "slash headcount by 10%", you don't feel the weight as much. It's the difference between hand-to-hand combat and firing a drone missile from a command center thousands of miles away.
- NoGravitas 4y ago
  As a worker, I'd prefer to have the time to prepare. By, for example, job hunting. Or at the least updating and polishing my resume.
- nitwit005 4y ago
  While it is possible some people are trying to do the right thing, it seems more likely they simply don't care. Companies have all sorts of fake job openings, even when things are good now. They view it as a form of marketing, showing that they're growing. That it wastes applicants' time applying is an externality. It's not hurting them.
- xmodem 4y ago
  Well, one alternative is not to get into that situation in the first place. > Isn't it a lot better to have a single all-hands meeting where you announce layoffs, the people who are affected will be contacted by their manager with severance information, and the plan going forward? Well, maybe. But if my employer announced layoffs, I would be looking for a new job the next day regardless of whether I was included. For one thing, 10% layoffs is unlikely to correspond to 10% reduction in total work, so my workload just grew by 10%, and somehow I doubt I'm getting a 10% raise to compensate. For another, the company has now lost its ability to attract top-tier talent, for several years if not forever.

While this may be true from the perspective of upper management, it is a very shitty way to treat the people who work for you, or would like to.

by xmodem 4y ago

While this may be true from the perspective of upper management, it is a very shitty way to treat the people who work for you, or would like to.

mjr00 4y ago

What's the alternative? Telling all of your employees "hey we're thinking about layoffs that may or may not happen, and we don't know who will be affected" would be a massive morale hit and make people leave. Until the final decision is made -- and this is a hard decision that everyone, including upper management, wants to avoid making until absolutely necessary -- it's best to keep it close to the chest. Just because you've planned for it doesn't mean you'll execute on it. Look at this situation, even. Elon says he's going to cut 10% of Tesla's jobs. You're a Tesla employee. Is your job on the chopping block? Should you start looking? Nearly every person at Tesla is now living with fear that they might not have a steady paycheck in a month. To me this is a way shittier situation because you're stuck in limbo for a month or more. Isn't it a lot better to have a single all-hands meeting where you announce layoffs, the people who are affected will be contacted by their manager with severance information, and the plan going forward? Rather than just having this stuff linger for months?

Espressosaurus 4y ago
Once you've started layoffs, the possibility that there will be layoffs in the future is much higher. Anybody at Tesla who doesn't get hit in the initial round should be thinking about what if there's a round 2. I'd personally be grabbing my parachute, or at least sizing one for myself. The long slow method gives more time for people to bail the hell out. As a worker, I think I prefer the time.
akudha 4y ago
this is a hard decision that everyone, including upper management I call bullshit on the inclusion of "upper management". To think upper management cares about anything other than short term profits (and their own bonuses) is just naive. When COVID hit, the company I worked for laid off 40 people (we were just a couple of hundred employees in total). You know how they laid them off? One morning they simply asked the sysadmin to turn off their logins. It is not a "hard decision" - to them, it is just like throwing away a chair or a table. Remember that dude who laid off 900 something people on a zoom call and shit talking them later? You mentioned morale, what do you think happens the morale of the people who found half of their (small) team laid off with zero warning, like it happened to my team? There may be exceptions of course, but it is safe to say most companies don't give a shit about their employees, even their star employees. I am not complaining about layoffs here (though the way they do it is cruel). Just pointing out that companies are not as heartbroken about it as you seem to think. It is just business
- mjr00 4y ago
  I'm not going to pretend that layoffs are harder on upper management than employees or anything. Getting laid off sucks ass and there's no sugarcoating it. But thinking that being a C-level automatically means you're a Patrick Bateman style sociopath treating people like furniture is an immature take, especially for a forum like this, where so many people are entrepreneurs and upper management themselves. They're still people.
  - candiddevmike 4y ago
    You don't see those folks taking a paycut to keep the furniture around though.
  - rchaud 4y ago
    If you're at C-level at a company of Tesla's size, you are still a person, just compensated as though you were 50 persons. That is going to change how you're perceived, like it or not. Everyone is judged on the basis of their actions, not their words. When you're a CEO managing 10 people, you feel the weight of every firing. When you can tell your lieutenants "slash headcount by 10%", you don't feel the weight as much. It's the difference between hand-to-hand combat and firing a drone missile from a command center thousands of miles away.
NoGravitas 4y ago
As a worker, I'd prefer to have the time to prepare. By, for example, job hunting. Or at the least updating and polishing my resume.
nitwit005 4y ago
While it is possible some people are trying to do the right thing, it seems more likely they simply don't care. Companies have all sorts of fake job openings, even when things are good now. They view it as a form of marketing, showing that they're growing. That it wastes applicants' time applying is an externality. It's not hurting them.
xmodem 4y ago
Well, one alternative is not to get into that situation in the first place. > Isn't it a lot better to have a single all-hands meeting where you announce layoffs, the people who are affected will be contacted by their manager with severance information, and the plan going forward? Well, maybe. But if my employer announced layoffs, I would be looking for a new job the next day regardless of whether I was included. For one thing, 10% layoffs is unlikely to correspond to 10% reduction in total work, so my workload just grew by 10%, and somehow I doubt I'm getting a 10% raise to compensate. For another, the company has now lost its ability to attract top-tier talent, for several years if not forever.