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> I totally understand doing this once we've phased out burning natural gas for electricity I've been thinking about this in Europe. How to wean oneself off of

by buro9 4y ago

> I totally understand doing this once we've phased out burning natural gas for electricity I've been thinking about this in Europe. How to wean oneself off of gas. The big wins are electric generation, and those can be done within a reasonable timeframe by states with largely unilateral decision making. But the long tail... Domestic use of gas. That's hard. How does one ask an entire populace to rid themselves off of gas hobs, gas heated water, gas heated radiators? It takes time, maybe with concerted effort in only one generation could it be achieved. Weirdly it makes sense to start banning things on the long tail and seed the idea that this all comes to an end and early adopters need to be on electricity already. As ridiculous a drop in the ocean of banning a BBQ grill... That long tail has to be addressed. I'd love to see a ban on all gas combi boilers and gas hobs in the UK as soon as 5 years time. I'm more surprised this isn't seen as an opportunity to innovate in this space and open multiple new markets and leaps in what can be done with electricity.

wentwiththeflow 4y ago
lun.energy
- hgomersall 4y ago
  What is lun? I looked at the website and learnt nothing.
mcv 4y ago
One easy thing to do is build all new homes with a good electricity connection, heat pumps and no gas lines anymore. Leaving out gas lines saves a lot of complex infrastructure costs and risks. Upgrading old homes is less urgent. Make the first step first, the rest will come.
martincollignon 4y ago
This is why we created Lun. Every gas boiler's consumption emits about 2tCO2 per year - and there are about 90 million buildings in Europe that could be heated using heat pumps instead, with huge benefits for energy efficiency and carbon emissions. As you said, it's a hard problem. Luckily, politicians and bureaucrats are passing more and more legislation that will force the fossil fuels out of heating over the next decade. We see it as our job to make sure it's going to happen in real life by being the glue between all parties in the value chain (consumers, OEMs, installers, utilities, governments, financial institutions). And we're looking for great people ;) careers.lun.energy
- buro9 4y ago
  For where I live in London, ground heat pumps are infeasible and air heat pumps would produce too much noise and not be permitted under conservation area rules. What most of the UK needs is an effective drop-in replacement to a combi boiler, ideally one that doesn't need a large water storage cylinder. It could even be a combination of a slow boiler (for radiators) and a fast water heating unit (for bath/shower/taps). Any retrofit of air or ground heat pumps into Victorian terraces just wouldn't work or be acceptable. The UK needs to replace millions of these style boilers https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/boilers/directory/greenstar-si-compact https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/boilers/directory... As yet no comparable electric version exists at similar price, size, capability. This is where a govt can incentivise innovation to both create what we need, and then help it be deployed (first with a stick like banning things, and second with a carrot like helping those in poverty get it for cheap/free).
  - martincollignon 4y ago
    For dense, urban environment I think district heating should we the way to go. Works very well in Denmark!
    - buro9 4y ago
      Still unrealistic. Requires land for the district heating facility, and then ripping up the road to lay plumbing, etc. For the UK the solution is known: create and mass produce an electric alternative to the combo boiler. The numbers required, and the time to fit them offers at least a decade of mid-skilled manufacturing and trades employment, as well as recycling opportunities for the old boilers (aluminium, steel, brass). The cost can also be spread over time and you can start anywhere once the boilers exist.
hellotomyrars 4y ago
Consumers tend to be price-sensitive and the gas stove is usually cheaper than the low-end electric stove tops, to say nothing of the higher end ones. Also gas is familiar and popular perception for electric tends to be poorer than gas. Admittedly anecdotal but when I hear someone who I know choosing gas over electric, that is often their primary justification.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
daniel-cussen 4y ago
And do it for bad political reasons, as opposed to good political reasons or good reasons in the absolute? Like I don't let Joseph Biden tell me how to talk, what to think, who to blame, whom I should stand by or do in. I'm not going to let him tell me how to cook. Plus it looks counterproductive, like an uneconomical reduction in gas usage leads to a higher gas usage in the profitable part of the economy to make up for it.

by buro9 4y ago

wentwiththeflow 4y ago

lun.energy

hgomersall 4y ago
What is lun? I looked at the website and learnt nothing.

mcv 4y ago

One easy thing to do is build all new homes with a good electricity connection, heat pumps and no gas lines anymore. Leaving out gas lines saves a lot of complex infrastructure costs and risks. Upgrading old homes is less urgent. Make the first step first, the rest will come.

martincollignon 4y ago

This is why we created Lun. Every gas boiler's consumption emits about 2tCO2 per year - and there are about 90 million buildings in Europe that could be heated using heat pumps instead, with huge benefits for energy efficiency and carbon emissions. As you said, it's a hard problem. Luckily, politicians and bureaucrats are passing more and more legislation that will force the fossil fuels out of heating over the next decade. We see it as our job to make sure it's going to happen in real life by being the glue between all parties in the value chain (consumers, OEMs, installers, utilities, governments, financial institutions). And we're looking for great people ;) careers.lun.energy

buro9 4y ago
For where I live in London, ground heat pumps are infeasible and air heat pumps would produce too much noise and not be permitted under conservation area rules. What most of the UK needs is an effective drop-in replacement to a combi boiler, ideally one that doesn't need a large water storage cylinder. It could even be a combination of a slow boiler (for radiators) and a fast water heating unit (for bath/shower/taps). Any retrofit of air or ground heat pumps into Victorian terraces just wouldn't work or be acceptable. The UK needs to replace millions of these style boilers https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/boilers/directory/greenstar-si-compact https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/boilers/directory... As yet no comparable electric version exists at similar price, size, capability. This is where a govt can incentivise innovation to both create what we need, and then help it be deployed (first with a stick like banning things, and second with a carrot like helping those in poverty get it for cheap/free).
- martincollignon 4y ago
  For dense, urban environment I think district heating should we the way to go. Works very well in Denmark!
  - buro9 4y ago
    Still unrealistic. Requires land for the district heating facility, and then ripping up the road to lay plumbing, etc. For the UK the solution is known: create and mass produce an electric alternative to the combo boiler. The numbers required, and the time to fit them offers at least a decade of mid-skilled manufacturing and trades employment, as well as recycling opportunities for the old boilers (aluminium, steel, brass). The cost can also be spread over time and you can start anywhere once the boilers exist.

hellotomyrars 4y ago

Consumers tend to be price-sensitive and the gas stove is usually cheaper than the low-end electric stove tops, to say nothing of the higher end ones. Also gas is familiar and popular perception for electric tends to be poorer than gas. Admittedly anecdotal but when I hear someone who I know choosing gas over electric, that is often their primary justification.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

daniel-cussen 4y ago

And do it for bad political reasons, as opposed to good political reasons or good reasons in the absolute? Like I don't let Joseph Biden tell me how to talk, what to think, who to blame, whom I should stand by or do in. I'm not going to let him tell me how to cook. Plus it looks counterproductive, like an uneconomical reduction in gas usage leads to a higher gas usage in the profitable part of the economy to make up for it.