6 ms·

> That's a really awesome story with a great opening, middle, and especially the end, if one ignores the adolescent fraud. That admission was the best part! Ev

> That's a really awesome story with a great opening, middle, and especially the end, if one ignores the adolescent fraud. That admission was the best part! Everyone here was not goody two shoes in their teens. Accepting this reality can release people from expectations of perfection. Perhaps ironically, kids' behavior can improve when they feel their imperfections are airable.

languageserver 4y ago
I am not sure credit card fraud is innocent pranks or misbehavior... I can tell you with certainty that most teenagers have never committed that sort of crimes tbh.
- kingkawn 4y ago
  Here’s your merit badge for pedantry
- samtheDamned 4y ago
  You'd be surprised..
- stavros 4y ago
  Not for lack of trying.
- Jerrrry 4y ago
  Always-online teenagers are a different demographic than your "average" teenager. the highs of an exploit working or a bypass make drugs look like candy.
- williamcotton 4y ago
  If we’re talking about the AOHell era of the mid 90s then I have anecdotal evidence that the majority of kids I knew were committing some kind of wire fraud in exchange for internet access! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOHell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOHell
- toss1 4y ago
  Said the one who clearly missed out....
- samstave 4y ago
  Credit card fraud was really common in the 80 among "hacker" types. I knew of several in Lake Tahoe that were high-school kids at the time in the late 80s - someohow managed to get credit cards and would order deliveries to "vacation homes" in lake tahoe where they knew the owners lived in the bay area and wouldnt be at the house - and would have things dropped off to the vacant houses to go get them. Also, in 1980 - we had a payphone inside our home in Tahoe. I didnt know this was an odd thing to have until much later.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Late 1980 was when criminality was going up and right before its peak. It is quite lower now ... and people who were teenagers in late 1980 are almost 60 now.
    - chowchowchow 4y ago
      Check your math on that one. More like 50 +/- a few years.
    - samstave 4y ago
      Im 47. Started Highschool in 1989
      - samstave 4y ago
        Also, I have been using computers since 1984... Online since 1993.
- cortesoft 4y ago
  All credit card fraud is not created equal. He didn't steal any physical goods, nor did he steal anyone's credit card. He stole some hours of internet connection, which probably didn't cost the ISP that much. Not saying it is totally fine, but it really isn't that bad.
- jhgb 4y ago
  While in general I'm tempted to agree with you, if anyone deserves it, it's probably telcos anyway.
JackFr 4y ago
In the grand scheme of things, what he did is hardly the end of the world. And yet, it still doesn't sit quite right with me. I suppose its because there doesn't seem to be the slightest hint in the writing that credit card fraud is wrong, or that it's even something you shouldn't do. I looked for it. And to add to that, what he did wasn't 'a hack', it wasn't particularly clever. It was just theft of services and a lot of lying because he didn't have something he wanted. I think if he would describe it as a youthful indiscretion or something similar it would go a long way.
- crmd 4y ago
  In the hacker ethos, gaining access to systems is in no way unethical or deserving of remorse. The hack in this case was (1) exploiting the ISP’s delayed batch processing of credit card orders, and (2) circumventing their deny list of callback phone numbers. For the same reason you’ll rarely see urbex photographers expressing remorse for trespassing. Getting onto skyscraper roofs and into steam tunnels is just what you do. Related - I went to college in the late 90s, at the end of this era, where there was a constant game of cat and mouse between the University unix and network admins and the hacker kids. Yes it was technically felonies all night long, but there was legitimate mutual respect for technical skills on both sides and following the unwritten rules of not causing data loss or disrupting services. This is how I learned the skills to start my career, and probably how they learned themselves back when they were students. For them to rat out a student was kind of unsportsmanlike. It would be admitting they weren’t good at their jobs. I’m told this hacker culture no longer exists at my Uni. If you get caught escalating privileges on a computer you’d be facing expulsion and referral to the police.
  - kshacker 4y ago
    > I’m told this hacker culture no longer exists at my Uni. If you get caught escalating privileges on a computer you’d be facing expulsion and referral to the police. it has a reason. We did not have our life story at our fingertips in those days. Even if the university computers may not have sensitive information but they could be hijacked to be part of bot net or just mint bitcoins. They stakes are much higher. I am not at a uni so don't know the reality but I can understand if they are doing it.
stevenjgarner 4y ago
Going through the grueling immigration process, Homeland Security eventually sits across the table from you, looks you in the eye, and asks "have you ever committed a crime for which you have not been convicted?"
- autoexec 4y ago
  I doubt there's a single person alive who could answer "no" to that question with certainty and still be telling the truth. What is the purpose of a question like that?
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    It's malevalent question - most people don't even know the names of all crimes that exist - let alone defences avaliable and how they all work togetehr. Breaking into someone's house is obviously a crime, but if you were running away from a axe-wielding murder then it isn't. Taking someone's car is theft, but it isn't if 'they would have agreed for you to use it if they had known the situatiojn at hand'.
  - stevenjgarner 4y ago
    Exactly. It bothers me every day. It defines much of my self-image in being present in the US. I was confronted with that question in my citizenship interview, and more recently in my global entry interview. I know of many others who have been asked the same thing. I'm thinking "heck I drove 9% over the speed limit driving to this interview. They probably know that. When I parked the car, I jay-walked across the empty street into the building. They have that on video!". If I say no, if I say yes, either way I have committed perjury. All just because I wanted my slice of the American dream. I had a friend (deceased) who was a federal agent. He explained to me years ago that the US code is intentionally drafted so that EVERYONE is a criminal (sorry @ClumsyPilot, a "suspect"). If you are in compliance with one section of code you are automatically in violation of another. If the 3-letter agency wants to get you, they can ALWAYS get you. I'm not sure that I believe that. I'm not sure I want to believe that. But he certainly believed that.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
_notathrowaway 4y ago
>Everyone here was not goody two shoes in their teens. That's called projection.

languageserver 4y ago

I am not sure credit card fraud is innocent pranks or misbehavior... I can tell you with certainty that most teenagers have never committed that sort of crimes tbh.

kingkawn 4y ago
Here’s your merit badge for pedantry
samtheDamned 4y ago
You'd be surprised..
stavros 4y ago
Not for lack of trying.
Jerrrry 4y ago
Always-online teenagers are a different demographic than your "average" teenager. the highs of an exploit working or a bypass make drugs look like candy.
williamcotton 4y ago
If we’re talking about the AOHell era of the mid 90s then I have anecdotal evidence that the majority of kids I knew were committing some kind of wire fraud in exchange for internet access! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOHell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOHell
toss1 4y ago
Said the one who clearly missed out....
samstave 4y ago
Credit card fraud was really common in the 80 among "hacker" types. I knew of several in Lake Tahoe that were high-school kids at the time in the late 80s - someohow managed to get credit cards and would order deliveries to "vacation homes" in lake tahoe where they knew the owners lived in the bay area and wouldnt be at the house - and would have things dropped off to the vacant houses to go get them. Also, in 1980 - we had a payphone inside our home in Tahoe. I didnt know this was an odd thing to have until much later.
- watwut 4y ago
  Late 1980 was when criminality was going up and right before its peak. It is quite lower now ... and people who were teenagers in late 1980 are almost 60 now.
  - chowchowchow 4y ago
    Check your math on that one. More like 50 +/- a few years.
  - samstave 4y ago
    Im 47. Started Highschool in 1989
    - samstave 4y ago
      Also, I have been using computers since 1984... Online since 1993.
cortesoft 4y ago
All credit card fraud is not created equal. He didn't steal any physical goods, nor did he steal anyone's credit card. He stole some hours of internet connection, which probably didn't cost the ISP that much. Not saying it is totally fine, but it really isn't that bad.
jhgb 4y ago
While in general I'm tempted to agree with you, if anyone deserves it, it's probably telcos anyway.

JackFr 4y ago

In the grand scheme of things, what he did is hardly the end of the world. And yet, it still doesn't sit quite right with me. I suppose its because there doesn't seem to be the slightest hint in the writing that credit card fraud is wrong, or that it's even something you shouldn't do. I looked for it. And to add to that, what he did wasn't 'a hack', it wasn't particularly clever. It was just theft of services and a lot of lying because he didn't have something he wanted. I think if he would describe it as a youthful indiscretion or something similar it would go a long way.

crmd 4y ago
In the hacker ethos, gaining access to systems is in no way unethical or deserving of remorse. The hack in this case was (1) exploiting the ISP’s delayed batch processing of credit card orders, and (2) circumventing their deny list of callback phone numbers. For the same reason you’ll rarely see urbex photographers expressing remorse for trespassing. Getting onto skyscraper roofs and into steam tunnels is just what you do. Related - I went to college in the late 90s, at the end of this era, where there was a constant game of cat and mouse between the University unix and network admins and the hacker kids. Yes it was technically felonies all night long, but there was legitimate mutual respect for technical skills on both sides and following the unwritten rules of not causing data loss or disrupting services. This is how I learned the skills to start my career, and probably how they learned themselves back when they were students. For them to rat out a student was kind of unsportsmanlike. It would be admitting they weren’t good at their jobs. I’m told this hacker culture no longer exists at my Uni. If you get caught escalating privileges on a computer you’d be facing expulsion and referral to the police.
- kshacker 4y ago
  > I’m told this hacker culture no longer exists at my Uni. If you get caught escalating privileges on a computer you’d be facing expulsion and referral to the police. it has a reason. We did not have our life story at our fingertips in those days. Even if the university computers may not have sensitive information but they could be hijacked to be part of bot net or just mint bitcoins. They stakes are much higher. I am not at a uni so don't know the reality but I can understand if they are doing it.

stevenjgarner 4y ago

Going through the grueling immigration process, Homeland Security eventually sits across the table from you, looks you in the eye, and asks "have you ever committed a crime for which you have not been convicted?"

autoexec 4y ago
I doubt there's a single person alive who could answer "no" to that question with certainty and still be telling the truth. What is the purpose of a question like that?
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  It's malevalent question - most people don't even know the names of all crimes that exist - let alone defences avaliable and how they all work togetehr. Breaking into someone's house is obviously a crime, but if you were running away from a axe-wielding murder then it isn't. Taking someone's car is theft, but it isn't if 'they would have agreed for you to use it if they had known the situatiojn at hand'.
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  Exactly. It bothers me every day. It defines much of my self-image in being present in the US. I was confronted with that question in my citizenship interview, and more recently in my global entry interview. I know of many others who have been asked the same thing. I'm thinking "heck I drove 9% over the speed limit driving to this interview. They probably know that. When I parked the car, I jay-walked across the empty street into the building. They have that on video!". If I say no, if I say yes, either way I have committed perjury. All just because I wanted my slice of the American dream. I had a friend (deceased) who was a federal agent. He explained to me years ago that the US code is intentionally drafted so that EVERYONE is a criminal (sorry @ClumsyPilot, a "suspect"). If you are in compliance with one section of code you are automatically in violation of another. If the 3-letter agency wants to get you, they can ALWAYS get you. I'm not sure that I believe that. I'm not sure I want to believe that. But he certainly believed that.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago

_notathrowaway 4y ago

>Everyone here was not goody two shoes in their teens. That's called projection.