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Well said. Americans have no idea of what caste-based discrimination looks like and hence merely use it to foist their own prejudices (i.e. "they terk err jerb

Well said. Americans have no idea of what caste-based discrimination looks like and hence merely use it to foist their own prejudices (i.e. "they terk err jerbs") onto the Indian community. Indians have such diversity amongst themselves (North vs. South, State vs. State, Linguistic, Religious etc.) that anything can be used as a bone of contention (real or imagined). The first thing to realize is that people with grievances whether factual or not, often use the American platform to push their agenda. While it makes some sense to raise Caste-based discrimination etc. within the Indian Workplace, it absolutely does not make any sense to raise it in the American Workplace simply because the repercussions would be vastly detrimental to the entire Indian Community. It is also the case that Caste-based discrimination has declined greatly in Urban India (since Independence) and more specifically in the IT sector where everybody is only after the almighty USD/INR and nothing else matters. Hence i think Google did the right thing in cancelling this talk.

jjeaff 4y ago
I may be an American, but sometimes it doesn't take an expert on the Indian caste system to spot caste discrimination. I have literally heard people say "I don't have to listen to him, he is of a lower caste" or some variation of that sentence. In fact, just yesterday, I was watching an episode of one of Gordon Ramsay's kitchen shows. The chef was Indian and said "he can't tell me what to do, we are the same caste and I am older."
- rramadass 4y ago
  Not everything in life is simple and in particular; nuances matter very much when it comes to understanding other Cultures/Social Structures. Anecdotes like yours really bother me because they sound so outlandish that their veracity cannot be taken on faith. Having spent a considerable part of my working life in the US, i can state that never once has the subject of Caste ever been a topic of relevance with my Indian colleagues i.e. it has never ever come up in any discussions, implicit or otherwise. None of my American colleagues knew much about it; and i have worked across a bunch of companies so the sample space is quite spread out.
  - djohnston 4y ago
    So you have no evidence, he has evidence, and your argument is simply "I don't believe you." These are the same forum discussion strategies of white nationalists, and this has been a fascinating thread to read!
    - rramadass 4y ago
      I wrote; >their veracity cannot be taken on faith If you think what he "claims" is evidence, i have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. I will place my decade and a half of working experience across half a dozen companies in the US over any anonymous person's "evidence".
      - roflyear 4y ago
        What caste are you personally in?
      - djohnston 4y ago
        You'll do whatever you can to maintain the fragile worldview that you haven't been the beneficiary of a class-based system that discriminates and gives you an unfair advantage. The interesting thing here is the isomoprhism between your reaction and those of other privileged groups forced to examine their ill-gotten gains, but on the other hand maybe it's not surprising, we're just chimpanzees with tools after all
        rramadass 4y ago
        You seem to be under the misapprehension that this thread is about "The Indian Caste System" as a whole; it is not. That is a different discussion altogether. For some authentic sources on this topic see my other comments in this thread. This thread is about "Caste based Discrimination" amongst the Indian IT Community in the USA. My contention is that it is not all the issue that it is made out to be by some vested interests who may have their own agenda in raking this up. Hence American companies need to be cautious before giving them a megaphone and a platform.
        4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
roflyear 4y ago
I think you should be able to criticize the discrimination that happens by Indian managers just like you should be able to criticize racist cops.
ThinkingAgain 4y ago
I was also initially surprised when I heard about caste based discrimination in USA. There are few points which helped me in understanding: 1) Personally a person may not have seen or heard of sexual harassment incidents. It doesn't mean "sexual harassment" doesn't exist. 2) Even if a lower caste person is not being discriminated, but if the person is feeling "uncomfortable" about revealing his/her caste it means that there is something wrong in the society which needs to be fixed. (very much like racism) As such USA does much better job of telling about racism, then India does about casteism. However India did a superb job of asking Dr.Ambedkar to write the constitution, by which the upper caste will abide. I am not aware of any other society which has said, "we believe in equality and will allow someone who was discriminated to make the rules by which we all will live".
- rmk 4y ago
  Allowing rabble-rousers to deliver 'talks' about caste discrimination is not going to change the hearts and minds of people who set store by caste affiliations. There will always be people who will be cagey about revealing aspects about themselves, including gay, queer, furries, upper-caste, lower-caste, nudists... the list goes on. People seem to take the aphorism 'bring your real self to work' a bit too literally. We all put a lid on certain aspects of our personalities at work, and endeavors to change that or eradicate that are highly misguided.
  - 9935c101ab17a66 4y ago
    There’s so much wrong with this comment. You pejoratively dismiss those who seek to bring attention to discrimination they experience as “rabble-rousers”. You then proceed to acknowledge that this is discrimination is very real (“we can’t change their hearts and minds!”). You then mention caste with nudism in the same sentence as nudism, like that’s appropriate. You then blame the victims of the aforementioned discrimination for ‘bringing their real selves to work,’ as if it’s somehow their fault they are being discriminated against. I’ve heard horror stories from Indian friends in tech. When they start at a new company, upper-caste Indian managers and coworkers will persistently ask them seemingly innocuous questions like where they are from, where they went to school, what Neighbourhood of which city did you grow up in, are you vegetarian, are you vegetarian by choice or birth, what do your parents do, etc. There was an even an episode of planet money where a person who had been discriminated against describes a coworker patting them on the back in the area where Brahmins sometimes where a white thread. Being born into a caste isn’t some “personality quirk,” and it’s exceedingly offensive to imply it is. Dalit peoples who face discrimination don’t have a choice in the matter, some will always see them as “untouchables” regardless of whether or not they disclose their caste openly. I seriously suggest you reevaluate your thinking.
u801e 4y ago
> Americans have no idea of what caste-based discrimination looks like > [...] > Hence i think Google did the right thing in cancelling this talk. It seems to me that this talk could have been an opportunity for Americans to learn about caste discrimination and what it looks like.
- india_usa 4y ago
  The speaker is very lopsided and is not accurate. It will give a very much one sided distorted message. Great google listended to its employees and canceled. Will any company invite a fae right or far left activist to talk on campus. Google is a technology company, not a liberal or conservative think tank. Let us get back to tech talks!
  - ridiculous_leke 4y ago
    > The speaker is very lopsided and is not accurate How exactly?

jjeaff 4y ago

I may be an American, but sometimes it doesn't take an expert on the Indian caste system to spot caste discrimination. I have literally heard people say "I don't have to listen to him, he is of a lower caste" or some variation of that sentence. In fact, just yesterday, I was watching an episode of one of Gordon Ramsay's kitchen shows. The chef was Indian and said "he can't tell me what to do, we are the same caste and I am older."

rramadass 4y ago
Not everything in life is simple and in particular; nuances matter very much when it comes to understanding other Cultures/Social Structures. Anecdotes like yours really bother me because they sound so outlandish that their veracity cannot be taken on faith. Having spent a considerable part of my working life in the US, i can state that never once has the subject of Caste ever been a topic of relevance with my Indian colleagues i.e. it has never ever come up in any discussions, implicit or otherwise. None of my American colleagues knew much about it; and i have worked across a bunch of companies so the sample space is quite spread out.
- djohnston 4y ago
  So you have no evidence, he has evidence, and your argument is simply "I don't believe you." These are the same forum discussion strategies of white nationalists, and this has been a fascinating thread to read!
  - rramadass 4y ago
    I wrote; >their veracity cannot be taken on faith If you think what he "claims" is evidence, i have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. I will place my decade and a half of working experience across half a dozen companies in the US over any anonymous person's "evidence".
    - roflyear 4y ago
      What caste are you personally in?
    - djohnston 4y ago
      You'll do whatever you can to maintain the fragile worldview that you haven't been the beneficiary of a class-based system that discriminates and gives you an unfair advantage. The interesting thing here is the isomoprhism between your reaction and those of other privileged groups forced to examine their ill-gotten gains, but on the other hand maybe it's not surprising, we're just chimpanzees with tools after all
      - rramadass 4y ago
        You seem to be under the misapprehension that this thread is about "The Indian Caste System" as a whole; it is not. That is a different discussion altogether. For some authentic sources on this topic see my other comments in this thread. This thread is about "Caste based Discrimination" amongst the Indian IT Community in the USA. My contention is that it is not all the issue that it is made out to be by some vested interests who may have their own agenda in raking this up. Hence American companies need to be cautious before giving them a megaphone and a platform.
      - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

roflyear 4y ago

I think you should be able to criticize the discrimination that happens by Indian managers just like you should be able to criticize racist cops.

ThinkingAgain 4y ago

I was also initially surprised when I heard about caste based discrimination in USA. There are few points which helped me in understanding: 1) Personally a person may not have seen or heard of sexual harassment incidents. It doesn't mean "sexual harassment" doesn't exist. 2) Even if a lower caste person is not being discriminated, but if the person is feeling "uncomfortable" about revealing his/her caste it means that there is something wrong in the society which needs to be fixed. (very much like racism) As such USA does much better job of telling about racism, then India does about casteism. However India did a superb job of asking Dr.Ambedkar to write the constitution, by which the upper caste will abide. I am not aware of any other society which has said, "we believe in equality and will allow someone who was discriminated to make the rules by which we all will live".

rmk 4y ago
Allowing rabble-rousers to deliver 'talks' about caste discrimination is not going to change the hearts and minds of people who set store by caste affiliations. There will always be people who will be cagey about revealing aspects about themselves, including gay, queer, furries, upper-caste, lower-caste, nudists... the list goes on. People seem to take the aphorism 'bring your real self to work' a bit too literally. We all put a lid on certain aspects of our personalities at work, and endeavors to change that or eradicate that are highly misguided.
- 9935c101ab17a66 4y ago
  There’s so much wrong with this comment. You pejoratively dismiss those who seek to bring attention to discrimination they experience as “rabble-rousers”. You then proceed to acknowledge that this is discrimination is very real (“we can’t change their hearts and minds!”). You then mention caste with nudism in the same sentence as nudism, like that’s appropriate. You then blame the victims of the aforementioned discrimination for ‘bringing their real selves to work,’ as if it’s somehow their fault they are being discriminated against. I’ve heard horror stories from Indian friends in tech. When they start at a new company, upper-caste Indian managers and coworkers will persistently ask them seemingly innocuous questions like where they are from, where they went to school, what Neighbourhood of which city did you grow up in, are you vegetarian, are you vegetarian by choice or birth, what do your parents do, etc. There was an even an episode of planet money where a person who had been discriminated against describes a coworker patting them on the back in the area where Brahmins sometimes where a white thread. Being born into a caste isn’t some “personality quirk,” and it’s exceedingly offensive to imply it is. Dalit peoples who face discrimination don’t have a choice in the matter, some will always see them as “untouchables” regardless of whether or not they disclose their caste openly. I seriously suggest you reevaluate your thinking.

u801e 4y ago

> Americans have no idea of what caste-based discrimination looks like > [...] > Hence i think Google did the right thing in cancelling this talk. It seems to me that this talk could have been an opportunity for Americans to learn about caste discrimination and what it looks like.

india_usa 4y ago
The speaker is very lopsided and is not accurate. It will give a very much one sided distorted message. Great google listended to its employees and canceled. Will any company invite a fae right or far left activist to talk on campus. Google is a technology company, not a liberal or conservative think tank. Let us get back to tech talks!
- ridiculous_leke 4y ago
  > The speaker is very lopsided and is not accurate How exactly?