15 ms·

I've got a Control Freak, probably the highest end induction cooktop available for a home chef, and is even used in 3 michelin star restaurants like Alinea. It'

I've got a Control Freak, probably the highest end induction cooktop available for a home chef, and is even used in 3 michelin star restaurants like Alinea. It's amazing for consistency, holding temperature, and a dozen other things. It's quite responsive in general! But I still reach for my Iwatani butane stove and copper saucepot sometimes. These are still significantly more responsive even than a top of the line induction cooker, and I don't have a gas line. Gas still has a place in cooking. It has all sorts of drawbacks, from air quality issues for humans, safety issues, etc., but as of right now, there are thermal properties around materials like copper which will not work with induction that mean there are things that simply can't be done with them, and resistive electric is horribly non-responsive. At least with current materials science, there's no true alternative.

kkfx 4y ago
Well... I'm full-electric since years and I still have to find a device that really match gas... Induction for me is NEVER able to hold a certain temperature, essentially all plate I've used at low temp just run-and-stop continuously witch combined to very thick pot allow a nearly-constant temp but definitively not much constant. Classic resistance on aluminum alloy and non-stick PTFE coating on contrary can regulate temp far better BUT can't really heat much more than a bit. Combining them I can cook at home like with gas, but definitively not the same experience, it's surely comfortable the ability to move gears anywhere, to have simple systems to clean etc but that's is. Cooking quality is far from being the same. For me, at home, suffice. For a pro, for someone who really want good cooking I doubt.
- AstralStorm 4y ago
  The cooker needs to work on continuous mode for setting the power, rather than pulse mode most (all?) of them do. Perhaps there exist such pro versions.
  - kkfx 4y ago
    Perhaps, so far I have seen "relatively few" induction plate of various vendor and shape, none do that at low/mean temp, only pushed to the maximum (witch is used normally just to boil since for frying means melting the fryer itself, so where "the right temp" does not count that much). IR models, including some pro one from a restaurant of some friends, do the same, but at least heating outside the pot the effect is less seen inside. Classic resistance direct coupled with the pot (coated aluminum, BBQ-alike plachas etc) do the same, all seems to be unable to regulate the heat, that's means they can only run full power and regulate temp choosing how much alternate on-and-off states... Theoretically I can imaging an induction plate made of many very small coils stitched together in a matrix so it's possible power only some of them using the metal of the pot and round-robin rotation of powered coils to keep the heat well spread and a constant transfer of little heat as needed, but so far I do not see anything like that on sale. I only see some pot with small steel inserts in an aluminum alloy to spread better the heat in the pot, some others mix different stratus of materials to achieve something similar but all can't compensate the irregular source of heat much. Theoretically I suppose IR plate can do the same, so classic resistance instead of a single bend costantan-alike "pipe" (sorry for my English, not my motherlanguage) can be a set of smaller ones with a controller to power just some, but again I do not see anything similar on sale. Perhaps having a thermometer inside the pot instead of in the plate might be of help to mitigate the effect, but it's hard to achieve, similarly tie a plate with specific pot to ensure a certain behavior can mitigate, but definitively not solve the issue. We have apparently no way to compensate heat dispersion - heat generation... Just try yourself: put a pot on a plate, with a very thin stratus of cooking oil (<1mm) or just a thinker (<4mm) of water and set the plate to the minimum, you'll see alternation of frying/boiling moment and "low heat" ones. An optical thermometer can easily confirm. For induction even noise can confirm the origin, a power meter can equally certify that.
    - linsomniac 4y ago
      I believe my Samsung Chef Collection ($3300-ish range ~5 years ago) does indeed have PWM or similar sort of fine control. Maybe you are just talking about the standalone induction hobs, but our range definitely seems to do more than just cycle the element on and off, or if it does it cycles it multiple times a second. Unless I'm missing something, here is the test you proposed, on our highest power burner (it may take a few minutes to finish processing and get 4K available), jumped to the "money shot", jump back to see other details: https://youtu.be/l4vg59llPlY?t=108 https://youtu.be/l4vg59llPlY?t=108
  - adolph 4y ago
    Do modern electric cooktops not operate by PWM?
    - spookthesunset 4y ago
      Only if you measure the pulse width in terms of seconds and not milliseconds. What is interesting is the hot plate on my 3d printer uses millisecond PWM, but not my stove. I'm not quite sure what the advantages of either method are?
      - AdamH12113 4y ago
        PWM normally works with a constant DC voltage. If you’re driving a resistive heater with AC, the duty cycle loses its meaning unless the PWM frequency is much less than the AC frequency.
        spookthesunset 4y ago
        Good point!
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- linsomniac 4y ago
  It sounds like you and the parent both have much more demanding needs than we do. My wife and I a pretty serious home cooks, and have been quite happy with our Samsung Chef Collection induction range. We pretty much home cook all of our food, but don't go so far as to make anything where we need to the degree PID feedback temp control. Not saying there isn't a need for it, just trying to figure out what percentage of homes (or more to the point of this article, restaurants) needs that level of precision. Air quality issues aside, I just prefer cooking on induction to gas. My inlaws have a nice gas range, I'd guess it's in the $5-10K price. I prefer my induction: - Less heat going around the pan, heating up the kitchen, the handles... - I'd say the induction is as fast as the gas (gas has more BTUs, but dumps a lot into the kitchen?) - Clean up is SOOO much easier. The cooktop doesn't get very hot and is solid surface. You can move a pan, wipe up a spill, and go right back to cooking, without turning the burner off. Or after cooking, just wipe it up. Resistance solid surface and gas both really burn spills on. - As fast as gas. The one real downside is that if you lift or tip the cookware (flipping, basting, just moving sauces/oils around), you get no heat while it's up.
  - kkfx 4y ago
    I do cook on indution since years, simply I have to say that it does work but it's not on par nor better than gas in cooking terms, for me suffice, I like the ability to move most electric appliances around also, I like the easiness to clean the induction plate BUT I understand people who don't, that's is. Having built a new home I do not have gas at all and I have a p.v. system so no interest in gas "extra comfort/regulation", in air quality I have a VMC so...
    - linsomniac 4y ago
      Just curious: what about induction is not up to par? What sorts of foods does it fall short at?
      - kkfx 4y ago
        On frying mainly because with plates I've used/tested (as pointed below in the conversation) is next to impossible keeping a certain temp constant, or it's way too hot or is a stop&go with cycles around 1.5 or so seconds that making good frying very uncomfortable. Limits in kind of pot (for instance no earthenware some like here in southern EU) or some aluminum classic fryer can be also added to the cons list. The pro is the easiness of install, for electric appliance in general their move ability around the house without special intervention, for those like me with p.v. of course the self-consumption option. That's is. As pointed by another user below top-of-the-line plates can do frying at a substantially constant temp, but for me 3k+ buks for a plate is simply excessively expensive for my cooking, illogical to buy, some might consider that an investment.
D13Fd 4y ago
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  This is the age old false dichotomy between personal use (minuscule percentage of green house gasses) versus agricultural/commercial use (the actual elephant in the room).
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    “Minuscule” or not, it doesn’t matter. Every molecule of CO2 & other greenhouse gases avoided now is worth dozens or hundreds or more that we’ll have to recapture via carbon capture in the future if we want to prevent a climate disaster.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      The amount of carbon a gas stove emits, like plastic straws, plastic bags, and all manner of bans the eco-activists are forcing on society, is so infinitesimally small compared to the airplanes the same activists and politicians use to jet around the country. It's completely laughable and totally absurd. I'm so utterly tired of virtue signaling in all aspects of society. We put insane amounts of effort into things that do nothing, then ignore all of the huge issues because those issues are hard and don't fit into a neat tweet.
      - ryukafalz 4y ago
        Okay, now how much carbon does the entire gas infrastructure used to pipe that gas around emit, and the gas used to heat homes? Because as long as people are going to specifically demand gas stoves, all that infrastructure still has to exist, and gas heating is going to be attractive because the gas hookup is already there. The fossil fuel industry specifically uses gas stoves as a gateway to push people towards using more gas (see the old “cooking with gas” campaign for example). This is about countering that messaging. (And besides, we know more about the health impacts of gas stove use now too; there are more direct health reasons you’d want to avoid them in addition to the climate impacts.) https://www.npr.org/2021/10/07/1015460605/gas-stove-emissions-climate-change-health-effects https://www.npr.org/2021/10/07/1015460605/gas-stove-emission...
CWuestefeld 4y ago
right now, there are thermal properties around materials like copper which will not work with induction that mean there are things that simply can't be done with them, and resistive electric is horribly non-responsive. As it happens, the latest installment of Technology Connections [1] does direct comparisons of the time required to boil a volume of water on various cooktop technologies. The winner was a cheap electric kettle, followed closely by an electric cooktop. A gas stove fared far worse. This surprised me, but there's the evidence. In retrospect, the efficiency of the gas stove is significantly impaired because it's not able to transfer as much of its energy into the pot - much of it escapes around the sides. To be fair, that's not quite the same thing as what you're saying: in car terms I'm comparing 0-60 acceleration times while you're comparing handling. But if I can stretch an analogy, a significant power advantage can cover a lot of sins in handling, see the famed Shelby Cobra for example. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c
- eric-hu 4y ago
  I think you’re off in your analogy. Parent comment is closer to the 0-60 time because of the responsiveness, and you’re referring to time to move a 1000 lbs mass to 60. When I see “responsive” in terms of cooking and gas, I think of wok cooking (mentioned in the article too) where 100k BTUs are needed for a few seconds at a time to combust atomized oil droplets flipped over the edge of the wok. Combusting that oil properly leaves behind the a small amount of highly flavorful residue that sets apart the best bbq and wok fired dishes. You can’t get this with a stove that only heats the cooking vessel, even if it has the ability to boil water faster than the same gas stove.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    Is it even legal to install 100k BTU burner in a residential application? I have a reasonably nice cooktop and the total BTUs of all burners is significantly less than 100k.
    - cthalupa 4y ago
      I wouldn't be surprised if there are places where it is, but I can't find any limit in my local ordinances. For consumers, you're just not going to get a 100k burner in general - I can find a few prosumer ranges that get up to 35k or so on a single burner, but nothing remotely close to what you would see in a professional Chinese kitchen. For stir-frying I have a 270k BTU propane burner I use outside. I wouldn't want to dump that much heat into the inside of my house in general, unless it was winter I guess.
jeramey 4y ago
This is very true, and my saucier skills are poor, but once upon a time I swore by thin aluminum or copper cookware for making eggs--especially omelettes. A couple of years ago, we decided to install an induction range in our home and, of course, those pieces of cookware were no longer usable and my eggs suffered until I learned about carbon steel pans and modified my technique a little bit. Induction with carbon steel isn't quite as responsive as copper or quality aluminum pieces, but it's dang close when used with a good induction system, and I also haven't had a flare up when frying at high temps since the change over. Flip side is that cookware maintenance is now higher, and I spend a lot more time ensuring my pans have a good seasoning on them. But good food is worth the effort! For certain sauces though--especially acidic ones--I'm not sure there's a better option than a gas hob just yet.

kkfx 4y ago

Well... I'm full-electric since years and I still have to find a device that really match gas... Induction for me is NEVER able to hold a certain temperature, essentially all plate I've used at low temp just run-and-stop continuously witch combined to very thick pot allow a nearly-constant temp but definitively not much constant. Classic resistance on aluminum alloy and non-stick PTFE coating on contrary can regulate temp far better BUT can't really heat much more than a bit. Combining them I can cook at home like with gas, but definitively not the same experience, it's surely comfortable the ability to move gears anywhere, to have simple systems to clean etc but that's is. Cooking quality is far from being the same. For me, at home, suffice. For a pro, for someone who really want good cooking I doubt.

AstralStorm 4y ago
The cooker needs to work on continuous mode for setting the power, rather than pulse mode most (all?) of them do. Perhaps there exist such pro versions.
- kkfx 4y ago
  Perhaps, so far I have seen "relatively few" induction plate of various vendor and shape, none do that at low/mean temp, only pushed to the maximum (witch is used normally just to boil since for frying means melting the fryer itself, so where "the right temp" does not count that much). IR models, including some pro one from a restaurant of some friends, do the same, but at least heating outside the pot the effect is less seen inside. Classic resistance direct coupled with the pot (coated aluminum, BBQ-alike plachas etc) do the same, all seems to be unable to regulate the heat, that's means they can only run full power and regulate temp choosing how much alternate on-and-off states... Theoretically I can imaging an induction plate made of many very small coils stitched together in a matrix so it's possible power only some of them using the metal of the pot and round-robin rotation of powered coils to keep the heat well spread and a constant transfer of little heat as needed, but so far I do not see anything like that on sale. I only see some pot with small steel inserts in an aluminum alloy to spread better the heat in the pot, some others mix different stratus of materials to achieve something similar but all can't compensate the irregular source of heat much. Theoretically I suppose IR plate can do the same, so classic resistance instead of a single bend costantan-alike "pipe" (sorry for my English, not my motherlanguage) can be a set of smaller ones with a controller to power just some, but again I do not see anything similar on sale. Perhaps having a thermometer inside the pot instead of in the plate might be of help to mitigate the effect, but it's hard to achieve, similarly tie a plate with specific pot to ensure a certain behavior can mitigate, but definitively not solve the issue. We have apparently no way to compensate heat dispersion - heat generation... Just try yourself: put a pot on a plate, with a very thin stratus of cooking oil (<1mm) or just a thinker (<4mm) of water and set the plate to the minimum, you'll see alternation of frying/boiling moment and "low heat" ones. An optical thermometer can easily confirm. For induction even noise can confirm the origin, a power meter can equally certify that.
  - linsomniac 4y ago
    I believe my Samsung Chef Collection ($3300-ish range ~5 years ago) does indeed have PWM or similar sort of fine control. Maybe you are just talking about the standalone induction hobs, but our range definitely seems to do more than just cycle the element on and off, or if it does it cycles it multiple times a second. Unless I'm missing something, here is the test you proposed, on our highest power burner (it may take a few minutes to finish processing and get 4K available), jumped to the "money shot", jump back to see other details: https://youtu.be/l4vg59llPlY?t=108 https://youtu.be/l4vg59llPlY?t=108
- adolph 4y ago
  Do modern electric cooktops not operate by PWM?
  - spookthesunset 4y ago
    Only if you measure the pulse width in terms of seconds and not milliseconds. What is interesting is the hot plate on my 3d printer uses millisecond PWM, but not my stove. I'm not quite sure what the advantages of either method are?
    - AdamH12113 4y ago
      PWM normally works with a constant DC voltage. If you’re driving a resistive heater with AC, the duty cycle loses its meaning unless the PWM frequency is much less than the AC frequency.
      - spookthesunset 4y ago
        Good point!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
linsomniac 4y ago
It sounds like you and the parent both have much more demanding needs than we do. My wife and I a pretty serious home cooks, and have been quite happy with our Samsung Chef Collection induction range. We pretty much home cook all of our food, but don't go so far as to make anything where we need to the degree PID feedback temp control. Not saying there isn't a need for it, just trying to figure out what percentage of homes (or more to the point of this article, restaurants) needs that level of precision. Air quality issues aside, I just prefer cooking on induction to gas. My inlaws have a nice gas range, I'd guess it's in the $5-10K price. I prefer my induction: - Less heat going around the pan, heating up the kitchen, the handles... - I'd say the induction is as fast as the gas (gas has more BTUs, but dumps a lot into the kitchen?) - Clean up is SOOO much easier. The cooktop doesn't get very hot and is solid surface. You can move a pan, wipe up a spill, and go right back to cooking, without turning the burner off. Or after cooking, just wipe it up. Resistance solid surface and gas both really burn spills on. - As fast as gas. The one real downside is that if you lift or tip the cookware (flipping, basting, just moving sauces/oils around), you get no heat while it's up.
- kkfx 4y ago
  I do cook on indution since years, simply I have to say that it does work but it's not on par nor better than gas in cooking terms, for me suffice, I like the ability to move most electric appliances around also, I like the easiness to clean the induction plate BUT I understand people who don't, that's is. Having built a new home I do not have gas at all and I have a p.v. system so no interest in gas "extra comfort/regulation", in air quality I have a VMC so...
  - linsomniac 4y ago
    Just curious: what about induction is not up to par? What sorts of foods does it fall short at?
    - kkfx 4y ago
      On frying mainly because with plates I've used/tested (as pointed below in the conversation) is next to impossible keeping a certain temp constant, or it's way too hot or is a stop&go with cycles around 1.5 or so seconds that making good frying very uncomfortable. Limits in kind of pot (for instance no earthenware some like here in southern EU) or some aluminum classic fryer can be also added to the cons list. The pro is the easiness of install, for electric appliance in general their move ability around the house without special intervention, for those like me with p.v. of course the self-consumption option. That's is. As pointed by another user below top-of-the-line plates can do frying at a substantially constant temp, but for me 3k+ buks for a plate is simply excessively expensive for my cooking, illogical to buy, some might consider that an investment.

D13Fd 4y ago

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
This is the age old false dichotomy between personal use (minuscule percentage of green house gasses) versus agricultural/commercial use (the actual elephant in the room).
- D13Fd 4y ago
  “Minuscule” or not, it doesn’t matter. Every molecule of CO2 & other greenhouse gases avoided now is worth dozens or hundreds or more that we’ll have to recapture via carbon capture in the future if we want to prevent a climate disaster.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    The amount of carbon a gas stove emits, like plastic straws, plastic bags, and all manner of bans the eco-activists are forcing on society, is so infinitesimally small compared to the airplanes the same activists and politicians use to jet around the country. It's completely laughable and totally absurd. I'm so utterly tired of virtue signaling in all aspects of society. We put insane amounts of effort into things that do nothing, then ignore all of the huge issues because those issues are hard and don't fit into a neat tweet.
    - ryukafalz 4y ago
      Okay, now how much carbon does the entire gas infrastructure used to pipe that gas around emit, and the gas used to heat homes? Because as long as people are going to specifically demand gas stoves, all that infrastructure still has to exist, and gas heating is going to be attractive because the gas hookup is already there. The fossil fuel industry specifically uses gas stoves as a gateway to push people towards using more gas (see the old “cooking with gas” campaign for example). This is about countering that messaging. (And besides, we know more about the health impacts of gas stove use now too; there are more direct health reasons you’d want to avoid them in addition to the climate impacts.) https://www.npr.org/2021/10/07/1015460605/gas-stove-emissions-climate-change-health-effects https://www.npr.org/2021/10/07/1015460605/gas-stove-emission...

CWuestefeld 4y ago

right now, there are thermal properties around materials like copper which will not work with induction that mean there are things that simply can't be done with them, and resistive electric is horribly non-responsive. As it happens, the latest installment of Technology Connections [1] does direct comparisons of the time required to boil a volume of water on various cooktop technologies. The winner was a cheap electric kettle, followed closely by an electric cooktop. A gas stove fared far worse. This surprised me, but there's the evidence. In retrospect, the efficiency of the gas stove is significantly impaired because it's not able to transfer as much of its energy into the pot - much of it escapes around the sides. To be fair, that's not quite the same thing as what you're saying: in car terms I'm comparing 0-60 acceleration times while you're comparing handling. But if I can stretch an analogy, a significant power advantage can cover a lot of sins in handling, see the famed Shelby Cobra for example. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c

eric-hu 4y ago
I think you’re off in your analogy. Parent comment is closer to the 0-60 time because of the responsiveness, and you’re referring to time to move a 1000 lbs mass to 60. When I see “responsive” in terms of cooking and gas, I think of wok cooking (mentioned in the article too) where 100k BTUs are needed for a few seconds at a time to combust atomized oil droplets flipped over the edge of the wok. Combusting that oil properly leaves behind the a small amount of highly flavorful residue that sets apart the best bbq and wok fired dishes. You can’t get this with a stove that only heats the cooking vessel, even if it has the ability to boil water faster than the same gas stove.
- brewdad 4y ago
  Is it even legal to install 100k BTU burner in a residential application? I have a reasonably nice cooktop and the total BTUs of all burners is significantly less than 100k.
  - cthalupa 4y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if there are places where it is, but I can't find any limit in my local ordinances. For consumers, you're just not going to get a 100k burner in general - I can find a few prosumer ranges that get up to 35k or so on a single burner, but nothing remotely close to what you would see in a professional Chinese kitchen. For stir-frying I have a 270k BTU propane burner I use outside. I wouldn't want to dump that much heat into the inside of my house in general, unless it was winter I guess.

jeramey 4y ago

This is very true, and my saucier skills are poor, but once upon a time I swore by thin aluminum or copper cookware for making eggs--especially omelettes. A couple of years ago, we decided to install an induction range in our home and, of course, those pieces of cookware were no longer usable and my eggs suffered until I learned about carbon steel pans and modified my technique a little bit. Induction with carbon steel isn't quite as responsive as copper or quality aluminum pieces, but it's dang close when used with a good induction system, and I also haven't had a flare up when frying at high temps since the change over. Flip side is that cookware maintenance is now higher, and I spend a lot more time ensuring my pans have a good seasoning on them. But good food is worth the effort! For certain sauces though--especially acidic ones--I'm not sure there's a better option than a gas hob just yet.