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There is also another notable observation. Whataboutism and victim blaming do go hand in hand with you. Again you are blaming Ukraine that it invited, or even

There is also another notable observation. Whataboutism and victim blaming do go hand in hand with you. Again you are blaming Ukraine that it invited, or even conned Russia to attack. If Russia had any interest to follow Minsk agreements, it would have done so. Instead it did the opposite. It sent more heavy weapons and did not disarm and disband terrorist groups it had established in Donbas.

EGreg 4y ago
Russia alone cannot implement Minsk agreements, it is for Ukraine to do so. Why is it worse than a huge war, to give your own citizens a way to vote, and promise not to bomb them? Explain to me that. Ukraine correctly stopped beating up the Euronaidan protests with Berkut, they should have sat down with the separatists too. You keep missing the point. Allow me to illustrate it this way: No one is perfect. Neither people nor countries have perfect records when they are faced with challenges. Expecting perfection is unreasonable. Let’s say that this is the 15th century Europe and baths and showers are rare. Coming to a person and saying “You stink! I can’t be around you.” is hypocritical if you yourself stink and everyone around you stinks. If stinking a certain amount is the norm for that level of civilization, then you have to take that into account when trying to address issues. If someone comes along and says to you, “look, you and your friends have not taken any showers recently either, and smelled even worse last year… this person had very good reason preventing him from taking a shower” what would be your reply? If it is the following… “That’s what aboutism! You are victim blaming! The complete and utter responsibility is on this person for stinking! Their stench is foul! Yes, perhaps somewhere, some other people did the same (huge understatement). But let’s focus on only this one case and take EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES to exclude THIS person from society.” “But when you and your friends did it, no one excluded you even a little bit…” “Well, mistakes were made back then, but we are wayyy cleaner than this person obviously. And besides, you are trying to distract from this one issue… we ALL have to band together teach this guy a lesson, if you are still talking to this person then you’rs a traitor and part of the problem and J must now shun you too”. This argument has numerous logical problems: 1. It sets one standard for the “target” to be “punished” after having had a completely different standard the entire time for oneself and one’s allies 2. It makes no promise to now use this new standard consistently going forward, no guarantee that the one calling for massive penalties will not continue to do that very thing or worse 3. It ignores far worse situations that are happening AT THE SAME TIME and were happening for years leading up to it, and doesn’t propose to do anything about them 4. It actively takes away support from real solutions that could prevent such situations from happening, within the current framework (diplomacy, eg Minsk agreements or deodorant/cologne for stinking) 5. It puts roadblocks in the way of improving the system, eg creating more mechanisms in International Law for peaceful self determination via voting to join a diff country, or requiring countries to give citizenship to native born children at least 2 generations in, etc. Again I ask, how can one point these problems out without engaging in “whataboutism”? Or we have to simply accept any hypocritical hysterical bullying or be told “we are part of the problem”, “on the wrong side of history” and deplatformed? You have to compare apples to apples. If all apples are a bit rotten, but you only focus on ONE apple rather than the problem of why apples rot, and not even the MOST rotten apples, then you are just hijacking the issue to attack one “enemy apple” you dislike. You are part of the “real problem”.
- eveningcoffee 4y ago
  I see that the same topic is covered by you here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31607305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31607305 I will give multiple answers over the course of the day there.
- eveningcoffee 4y ago
  Ok, I had more time to focus on this comment that I thought to be about something else. Honestly, this comment is pointless. See again the example here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31602479 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31602479 that you have not addressed. Let me iterate it one more time. Whataboutism does not help. It only distracts. If you care about Yemen, if you care about Ethiopia (I actually care but I do not have any idea how to stop it) then propose solutions that would end the conflict. I'm eager to read about these. Don't fuck up (sorry) solutions to other conflicts that can be realistically implemented. It does not help. Talk about your conflicts, propose solutions, but don't fuck up solutions to other conflicts because you think that your conflicts do not receive enough attention. Ukrainian invasion is European war, so Europeans care, especially Eastern Europeans. This conflict has at the moment only military solution as all the other solutions have failed so far. How many times have European leaders called Putin? What is the result? During Georgian war it had effect. Not anymore. It is ideological war, it does not have any rational purpose. It only ends when either Ukraine surrenders or somebody or something convinces Putin to stop. What it could be in your opinion? Ukraine not joining NATO? Sorry, it was not going to because of ongoing conflict anyway. And Putin knows this. But lets assume that Putin agrees to stop hostilities for land. Lets be generous and give him all the Donbas and all the land currently occupied by Russia. What does stop him from starting the war again when he has recovered and regrouped? If you think Russia respects agreements then you really do not know Russia. You do not know Russian mentality. Many people do. Listen to them. The current solution is to exhaust Russia's warring capacity so it literally could not make continued war in the future. The more modern heavy weapons Ukraine receives, less are there civil casualties because Ukraine can eliminate Russian forces from safer distance. This is literally the only thing at the moment that helps to save lives. Everything else is just wishful thinking and procrastination.

EGreg 4y ago

Russia alone cannot implement Minsk agreements, it is for Ukraine to do so. Why is it worse than a huge war, to give your own citizens a way to vote, and promise not to bomb them? Explain to me that. Ukraine correctly stopped beating up the Euronaidan protests with Berkut, they should have sat down with the separatists too. You keep missing the point. Allow me to illustrate it this way: No one is perfect. Neither people nor countries have perfect records when they are faced with challenges. Expecting perfection is unreasonable. Let’s say that this is the 15th century Europe and baths and showers are rare. Coming to a person and saying “You stink! I can’t be around you.” is hypocritical if you yourself stink and everyone around you stinks. If stinking a certain amount is the norm for that level of civilization, then you have to take that into account when trying to address issues. If someone comes along and says to you, “look, you and your friends have not taken any showers recently either, and smelled even worse last year… this person had very good reason preventing him from taking a shower” what would be your reply? If it is the following… “That’s what aboutism! You are victim blaming! The complete and utter responsibility is on this person for stinking! Their stench is foul! Yes, perhaps somewhere, some other people did the same (huge understatement). But let’s focus on only this one case and take EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES to exclude THIS person from society.” “But when you and your friends did it, no one excluded you even a little bit…” “Well, mistakes were made back then, but we are wayyy cleaner than this person obviously. And besides, you are trying to distract from this one issue… we ALL have to band together teach this guy a lesson, if you are still talking to this person then you’rs a traitor and part of the problem and J must now shun you too”. This argument has numerous logical problems: 1. It sets one standard for the “target” to be “punished” after having had a completely different standard the entire time for oneself and one’s allies 2. It makes no promise to now use this new standard consistently going forward, no guarantee that the one calling for massive penalties will not continue to do that very thing or worse 3. It ignores far worse situations that are happening AT THE SAME TIME and were happening for years leading up to it, and doesn’t propose to do anything about them 4. It actively takes away support from real solutions that could prevent such situations from happening, within the current framework (diplomacy, eg Minsk agreements or deodorant/cologne for stinking) 5. It puts roadblocks in the way of improving the system, eg creating more mechanisms in International Law for peaceful self determination via voting to join a diff country, or requiring countries to give citizenship to native born children at least 2 generations in, etc. Again I ask, how can one point these problems out without engaging in “whataboutism”? Or we have to simply accept any hypocritical hysterical bullying or be told “we are part of the problem”, “on the wrong side of history” and deplatformed? You have to compare apples to apples. If all apples are a bit rotten, but you only focus on ONE apple rather than the problem of why apples rot, and not even the MOST rotten apples, then you are just hijacking the issue to attack one “enemy apple” you dislike. You are part of the “real problem”.

eveningcoffee 4y ago
I see that the same topic is covered by you here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31607305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31607305 I will give multiple answers over the course of the day there.
eveningcoffee 4y ago
Ok, I had more time to focus on this comment that I thought to be about something else. Honestly, this comment is pointless. See again the example here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31602479 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31602479 that you have not addressed. Let me iterate it one more time. Whataboutism does not help. It only distracts. If you care about Yemen, if you care about Ethiopia (I actually care but I do not have any idea how to stop it) then propose solutions that would end the conflict. I'm eager to read about these. Don't fuck up (sorry) solutions to other conflicts that can be realistically implemented. It does not help. Talk about your conflicts, propose solutions, but don't fuck up solutions to other conflicts because you think that your conflicts do not receive enough attention. Ukrainian invasion is European war, so Europeans care, especially Eastern Europeans. This conflict has at the moment only military solution as all the other solutions have failed so far. How many times have European leaders called Putin? What is the result? During Georgian war it had effect. Not anymore. It is ideological war, it does not have any rational purpose. It only ends when either Ukraine surrenders or somebody or something convinces Putin to stop. What it could be in your opinion? Ukraine not joining NATO? Sorry, it was not going to because of ongoing conflict anyway. And Putin knows this. But lets assume that Putin agrees to stop hostilities for land. Lets be generous and give him all the Donbas and all the land currently occupied by Russia. What does stop him from starting the war again when he has recovered and regrouped? If you think Russia respects agreements then you really do not know Russia. You do not know Russian mentality. Many people do. Listen to them. The current solution is to exhaust Russia's warring capacity so it literally could not make continued war in the future. The more modern heavy weapons Ukraine receives, less are there civil casualties because Ukraine can eliminate Russian forces from safer distance. This is literally the only thing at the moment that helps to save lives. Everything else is just wishful thinking and procrastination.