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Many Brahmins I know don’t wear it. So how is it a caste marker? Heck I wear it only during certain ceremonies. So the point the gp was making about people wear

by rajup 4y ago

Many Brahmins I know don’t wear it. So how is it a caste marker? Heck I wear it only during certain ceremonies. So the point the gp was making about people wearing the sacred thread condoning the caste system and discrimination is patently false and bigoted.

senthil_rajasek 4y ago
>Many Brahmins I know don’t wear it. But only Brahmins have the right to wear it. Wearing a "sacred thread" in a society that wants to eliminate caste based discrimination is promoting and condoning discrimination. As an extreme example, how is this different from a klan member choosing to wear a "hood" in public.
- handoflixue 4y ago
  Only members of the KKK wear a hood, and all members of the KKK tautologically support racism. Presumably it is possible to be Brahmin, without supporting caste discrimination. A better analogy would be: Do you feel it should be illegal to mention have a degree from Yale or Harvard? They're both markers of status, and people absolutely discriminate based on that, but I don't think "I have a degree from Harvard" automatically makes you complicit in that.
  - senthil_rajasek 4y ago
    Calling oneself by a caste name such as a Brahmin is "casteist", it's tautological. A college degree is earned, a Brahmin caste status is inherited much like the klan claiming supreme status by blood.
    - rajup 4y ago
      Well, most religions are inherited and (as of today at least) identifying as religious does not automatically make one <insert-favorite-identity>-ist.
      - senthil_rajasek 4y ago
        Most religions allow conversions but you can never convert into a Brahmin. It's only inherited.
      - devnonymous 4y ago
        How did religion enter the conversation? Are you saying that you'd stop being a Hindu if you give up your Brahmin identity?
        1sembiyan 4y ago
        To the Brahmin, wearing the thread comes with religious obligations. Committing oneself to those religious obligations needn’t have anything to do other castes. > Are you saying that you'd stop being a Hindu if you give up your Brahmin identity? Surely there are many kinds of Hindus? To each community what’s important is different? And an answer to this question also depends on how the individual makes sense of his religion? While jati as a feature of the Indian landscape has persisted for a few thousand years, I believe jati and religion/theology are orthogonal. You can belong to caste x and any religion y in the sub-continent. But as it happens, when one talks about being anti-caste today many times it is to call out and disparage one’s Hindu identity. This makes any conversion about caste extremely muddled, with folks arguing past each other.
        devnonymous 4y ago
        > I believe jati and religion/theology are orthogonal. You can belong to caste x and any religion y in the sub-continent. My comment was in response to the parent who brought in the word religion into the discussion, as some means of justification of inheriting the religion of their parent is the same as inheriting the caste. ...and now here you claim that they are orthogonal. How very convenient. This is exactly the kind of deflection used to 'muddle' the conversation, as you put it. If they are orthogonal, why does caste still even persist ? Why is the notion of caste still held on to ? If one can follow the hindu religion without identifying with caste why do Indian Hindus still hold on to their caste identity ? It is easy to say the conversations get 'muddled' without bothering to learn why the thing under discussion even exists !! None of this is new. Dr. B.R. Ambedkar wrote about this decades ago and yet, here we are, with google claiming the same thing you are -- that talking about caste somehow ends up being Hinduphobic.
    - rajup 4y ago
      Godwin’s law strikes again. All Brahmins are nazis. Excellent.
    - samarthr1 4y ago
      But do i not have the right to bear the name of my forebears? Just because I bear a name commonly used by people of my community, does not make me complicit in the ills of the community I belong to. Or are you also judging a person by their surname?
      - senthil_rajasek 4y ago
        >do i not have the right to bear the name of my forebears? Why should this be a right? Inherited "wealth" is not considered a unrestricted right in many societies. The wealth tax is a great example of how society regulates "concentration of power" through inherited wealth. Caste based inheritance of wealth has no such regulation.
- 1sembiyan 4y ago
  That’s not true. Many other castes used to have their own thread ceremonies and wear it. In TN at least, I can think of the Chettiars and Nadars who did a 100 years ago, and who rid themselves of it after concerted efforts by the Justice Party. Example: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:An_elderly_Chettiar_Vellālar_wearing_the_sacred_thread_in_Sunnambukulam,_Tamil_Nadu._Photographed_during_the_Census_of_India,_1961.png https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:An_elderly_Chettia... Soundarapandian Nadar of Justice Party (and after whom Pondy Bazaar is named) campaigned in the Nadar community to get rid of the thread: https://alchetron.com/W-P-A-Soundarapandian-Nadar https://alchetron.com/W-P-A-Soundarapandian-Nadar Some Nairs wear it as well. Wearing the thread is not a “privilege” afforded to only Brahmins, although now in popular imagination it has become their identifier.
india_usa 4y ago
veda vyas and valmiki were not brahmin by birth by became through their actions
- senthil_rajasek 4y ago
  This is mythology. What we need is a system based on laws with checks and balances that ensures the poor and the marginalized get their fair shake?

by rajup 4y ago

senthil_rajasek 4y ago

>Many Brahmins I know don’t wear it. But only Brahmins have the right to wear it. Wearing a "sacred thread" in a society that wants to eliminate caste based discrimination is promoting and condoning discrimination. As an extreme example, how is this different from a klan member choosing to wear a "hood" in public.

handoflixue 4y ago
Only members of the KKK wear a hood, and all members of the KKK tautologically support racism. Presumably it is possible to be Brahmin, without supporting caste discrimination. A better analogy would be: Do you feel it should be illegal to mention have a degree from Yale or Harvard? They're both markers of status, and people absolutely discriminate based on that, but I don't think "I have a degree from Harvard" automatically makes you complicit in that.
- senthil_rajasek 4y ago
  Calling oneself by a caste name such as a Brahmin is "casteist", it's tautological. A college degree is earned, a Brahmin caste status is inherited much like the klan claiming supreme status by blood.
  - rajup 4y ago
    Well, most religions are inherited and (as of today at least) identifying as religious does not automatically make one <insert-favorite-identity>-ist.
    - senthil_rajasek 4y ago
      Most religions allow conversions but you can never convert into a Brahmin. It's only inherited.
    - devnonymous 4y ago
      How did religion enter the conversation? Are you saying that you'd stop being a Hindu if you give up your Brahmin identity?
      - 1sembiyan 4y ago
        To the Brahmin, wearing the thread comes with religious obligations. Committing oneself to those religious obligations needn’t have anything to do other castes. > Are you saying that you'd stop being a Hindu if you give up your Brahmin identity? Surely there are many kinds of Hindus? To each community what’s important is different? And an answer to this question also depends on how the individual makes sense of his religion? While jati as a feature of the Indian landscape has persisted for a few thousand years, I believe jati and religion/theology are orthogonal. You can belong to caste x and any religion y in the sub-continent. But as it happens, when one talks about being anti-caste today many times it is to call out and disparage one’s Hindu identity. This makes any conversion about caste extremely muddled, with folks arguing past each other.
        devnonymous 4y ago
        > I believe jati and religion/theology are orthogonal. You can belong to caste x and any religion y in the sub-continent. My comment was in response to the parent who brought in the word religion into the discussion, as some means of justification of inheriting the religion of their parent is the same as inheriting the caste. ...and now here you claim that they are orthogonal. How very convenient. This is exactly the kind of deflection used to 'muddle' the conversation, as you put it. If they are orthogonal, why does caste still even persist ? Why is the notion of caste still held on to ? If one can follow the hindu religion without identifying with caste why do Indian Hindus still hold on to their caste identity ? It is easy to say the conversations get 'muddled' without bothering to learn why the thing under discussion even exists !! None of this is new. Dr. B.R. Ambedkar wrote about this decades ago and yet, here we are, with google claiming the same thing you are -- that talking about caste somehow ends up being Hinduphobic.
  - rajup 4y ago
    Godwin’s law strikes again. All Brahmins are nazis. Excellent.
  - samarthr1 4y ago
    But do i not have the right to bear the name of my forebears? Just because I bear a name commonly used by people of my community, does not make me complicit in the ills of the community I belong to. Or are you also judging a person by their surname?
    - senthil_rajasek 4y ago
      >do i not have the right to bear the name of my forebears? Why should this be a right? Inherited "wealth" is not considered a unrestricted right in many societies. The wealth tax is a great example of how society regulates "concentration of power" through inherited wealth. Caste based inheritance of wealth has no such regulation.
1sembiyan 4y ago
That’s not true. Many other castes used to have their own thread ceremonies and wear it. In TN at least, I can think of the Chettiars and Nadars who did a 100 years ago, and who rid themselves of it after concerted efforts by the Justice Party. Example: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:An_elderly_Chettiar_Vellālar_wearing_the_sacred_thread_in_Sunnambukulam,_Tamil_Nadu._Photographed_during_the_Census_of_India,_1961.png https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:An_elderly_Chettia... Soundarapandian Nadar of Justice Party (and after whom Pondy Bazaar is named) campaigned in the Nadar community to get rid of the thread: https://alchetron.com/W-P-A-Soundarapandian-Nadar https://alchetron.com/W-P-A-Soundarapandian-Nadar Some Nairs wear it as well. Wearing the thread is not a “privilege” afforded to only Brahmins, although now in popular imagination it has become their identifier.

india_usa 4y ago

veda vyas and valmiki were not brahmin by birth by became through their actions

senthil_rajasek 4y ago
This is mythology. What we need is a system based on laws with checks and balances that ensures the poor and the marginalized get their fair shake?