6 ms·

I hear a lot of instances of favoritism or nepotism in what you describe, possibly even corruption, but not much sounds like caste-based discrimination. "Incomp

I hear a lot of instances of favoritism or nepotism in what you describe, possibly even corruption, but not much sounds like caste-based discrimination. "Incompetent person hires a lot of people they know instead of qualified candidates" is not really what's being discussed here, and I think Ms. Soundararajan would agree. As a side note, this illustrates quite neatly why most of us who come from India are somewhat reluctant to talk about caste and explain how typical discrimination takes place, because Americans will try to slot it into their preconceived notions about class or race-based discrimination, and tend to jump to conclusions like you're doing here, complete with an "I have nothing against Indian people" disclaimer at the end (Really?). So, a reasonable question is, "Well, what does a real instance of caste-based discrimination look like?" Imagine that among a bunch of Indian candidates, an Indian hiring manager hires only Indian people who order vegetarian meals at lunch, and rejects any Indian candidate who orders a dish containing meat. Also, suppose you see this happening pretty frequently, and the manager inexplicably rejected some pretty great candidates, and the only common factor is that they ordered meat at lunch. Then it might be caste discrimination! (please please please note the operative word might, I really don't want to start a witch hunt here) But something like that sounds pretty weird and far-fetched to most Americans, so it's hard to communicate what it looks like, let alone explain the somewhat complicated backing reasons.

nondravidian 4y ago
Except that this is not just weird and far-fetched. It is also very unusual for such diet-based discrimination to happen. I am a vegetarian. All managers (with the exception of one) who hired me in the past 12 years (in India) were not vegetarians. Unlikely that they saw vegetarians discriminating, and did not practice a little reverse discrimination themselves. The problem today in India is not that there is a caste competition between one caste and another, it is that the IT field is desperately in need of developers and testers. And, the employers are unable to pay the high salaries being demanded.
- quadrifoliate 4y ago
  The instance being described is mainly in the US, where the talk described was given. I know that such discrimination is highly unlikely, especially in the Midwest where there aren't a ton of Indian employees to begin with, and probably even fewer Indian hiring managers. However, I was merely stating it as an example of caste discrimination – which you seem to grasp readily, probably because you're Indian or work in India. Explaining to an American person how diet-based discrimination can be an instance of caste discrimination is harder than you'd think. The OP is basically going "I saw an Indian person doing this bad thing, so it must be caste-based discrimination!", which I'm trying to correct by citing an example of (so to say) actual discrimination on the basis of caste.
  - alex_smart 4y ago
    >So, a reasonable question is, "Well, what does a real instance of caste-based discrimination look like?" Given that the example came in the context of this question, the answer is a resounding "not like that".
roflyear 4y ago
I think hiring other Indians is the core of it. These aren't people they know, outside of recognizing their last name.
rramadass 4y ago
Well said. Americans have no idea of what caste-based discrimination looks like and hence merely use it to foist their own prejudices (i.e. "they terk err jerbs") onto the Indian community. Indians have such diversity amongst themselves (North vs. South, State vs. State, Linguistic, Religious etc.) that anything can be used as a bone of contention (real or imagined). The first thing to realize is that people with grievances whether factual or not, often use the American platform to push their agenda. While it makes some sense to raise Caste-based discrimination etc. within the Indian Workplace, it absolutely does not make any sense to raise it in the American Workplace simply because the repercussions would be vastly detrimental to the entire Indian Community. It is also the case that Caste-based discrimination has declined greatly in Urban India (since Independence) and more specifically in the IT sector where everybody is only after the almighty USD/INR and nothing else matters. Hence i think Google did the right thing in cancelling this talk.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  I may be an American, but sometimes it doesn't take an expert on the Indian caste system to spot caste discrimination. I have literally heard people say "I don't have to listen to him, he is of a lower caste" or some variation of that sentence. In fact, just yesterday, I was watching an episode of one of Gordon Ramsay's kitchen shows. The chef was Indian and said "he can't tell me what to do, we are the same caste and I am older."
  - rramadass 4y ago
    Not everything in life is simple and in particular; nuances matter very much when it comes to understanding other Cultures/Social Structures. Anecdotes like yours really bother me because they sound so outlandish that their veracity cannot be taken on faith. Having spent a considerable part of my working life in the US, i can state that never once has the subject of Caste ever been a topic of relevance with my Indian colleagues i.e. it has never ever come up in any discussions, implicit or otherwise. None of my American colleagues knew much about it; and i have worked across a bunch of companies so the sample space is quite spread out.

nondravidian 4y ago

Except that this is not just weird and far-fetched. It is also very unusual for such diet-based discrimination to happen. I am a vegetarian. All managers (with the exception of one) who hired me in the past 12 years (in India) were not vegetarians. Unlikely that they saw vegetarians discriminating, and did not practice a little reverse discrimination themselves. The problem today in India is not that there is a caste competition between one caste and another, it is that the IT field is desperately in need of developers and testers. And, the employers are unable to pay the high salaries being demanded.

quadrifoliate 4y ago
The instance being described is mainly in the US, where the talk described was given. I know that such discrimination is highly unlikely, especially in the Midwest where there aren't a ton of Indian employees to begin with, and probably even fewer Indian hiring managers. However, I was merely stating it as an example of caste discrimination – which you seem to grasp readily, probably because you're Indian or work in India. Explaining to an American person how diet-based discrimination can be an instance of caste discrimination is harder than you'd think. The OP is basically going "I saw an Indian person doing this bad thing, so it must be caste-based discrimination!", which I'm trying to correct by citing an example of (so to say) actual discrimination on the basis of caste.
- alex_smart 4y ago
  >So, a reasonable question is, "Well, what does a real instance of caste-based discrimination look like?" Given that the example came in the context of this question, the answer is a resounding "not like that".

roflyear 4y ago

I think hiring other Indians is the core of it. These aren't people they know, outside of recognizing their last name.

rramadass 4y ago

Well said. Americans have no idea of what caste-based discrimination looks like and hence merely use it to foist their own prejudices (i.e. "they terk err jerbs") onto the Indian community. Indians have such diversity amongst themselves (North vs. South, State vs. State, Linguistic, Religious etc.) that anything can be used as a bone of contention (real or imagined). The first thing to realize is that people with grievances whether factual or not, often use the American platform to push their agenda. While it makes some sense to raise Caste-based discrimination etc. within the Indian Workplace, it absolutely does not make any sense to raise it in the American Workplace simply because the repercussions would be vastly detrimental to the entire Indian Community. It is also the case that Caste-based discrimination has declined greatly in Urban India (since Independence) and more specifically in the IT sector where everybody is only after the almighty USD/INR and nothing else matters. Hence i think Google did the right thing in cancelling this talk.

jjeaff 4y ago
I may be an American, but sometimes it doesn't take an expert on the Indian caste system to spot caste discrimination. I have literally heard people say "I don't have to listen to him, he is of a lower caste" or some variation of that sentence. In fact, just yesterday, I was watching an episode of one of Gordon Ramsay's kitchen shows. The chef was Indian and said "he can't tell me what to do, we are the same caste and I am older."
- rramadass 4y ago
  Not everything in life is simple and in particular; nuances matter very much when it comes to understanding other Cultures/Social Structures. Anecdotes like yours really bother me because they sound so outlandish that their veracity cannot be taken on faith. Having spent a considerable part of my working life in the US, i can state that never once has the subject of Caste ever been a topic of relevance with my Indian colleagues i.e. it has never ever come up in any discussions, implicit or otherwise. None of my American colleagues knew much about it; and i have worked across a bunch of companies so the sample space is quite spread out.