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If we are comparing energy consumption of monetary systems I think we also need to look at the incumbent system’s costs with open eyes. The US dollar is the glo

by lowkey 4y ago

If we are comparing energy consumption of monetary systems I think we also need to look at the incumbent system’s costs with open eyes. The US dollar is the global reserve currency. It is no longer backed by gold. Instead it is backed by energy and military might in the form of the largest military industrial complex in the history of the world, responsible for more death and destruction of humanity and the environment than any other single entity over the last 70 years. Unlike Bitcoin which currently consumes a greater proportion of green/renewable energy than virtually any other industry, the US military operates almost exclusively on carbon-emitting fossil fuels and has left a trail of dead and wounded, mostly innocent civilians with brown skin, whose only crimes were being born with our oil under their feet. The US military is by far the single largest fossil fuel consumer in the world. Isn’t it curious that so little attention is focused on reducing the military’s dependence on fossil fuels? Where are the ESG proponents on the topic of the single largest contributor to global greenhouse gases? Will you stay silent on the subject now that you are aware of the fully-loaded costs of supporting the USD as the world’s reserve currency? By contrast, Bitcoin uses less energy than the world’s hair dryers to secure a considerable amount of value without the need for violence. If we consider the full extent of externalities required to secure the current monetary system, Satoshi’s invention of Nakamoto consensus starts to look like an alternative worth considering for at least some of the world’s wealth.

danShumway 4y ago
> If we are comparing energy consumption of monetary systems I think we also need to look at the incumbent system’s costs with open eyes. This is kind of goalpost moving. It's fair to ask about the human costs of other monetary systems, but I thought we were just trying to determine whether or not Bitcoin was efficient. It's not. But whatever, I'll follow that goalpost for a little while. In isolation I do think that criticism of government policy to value/devalue and secure traditional currencies would be a good argument... if Bitcoin was well positioned to be a replacement for traditional currency. But by your own admission Bitcoin isn't primarily a system for transactions, it's a system for storing value (actually I would argue it's primarily a speculative asset, not a traditional value store, but whatever, it doesn't matter). Bitcoin is not in its current state trying to replace dollars, because dollars need to be good at transactions, and Bitcoin is bad at transactions: it's wildly inefficient and environmentally unfriendly, it's slow and has high fees, it requires you to essentially move off chain to get anything approaching a normal transaction experience. > Isn’t it curious that so little attention is focused on reducing the military’s dependence on fossil fuels? If the biggest problem with the US military complex was its environmental cost, I would sleep better at night. I think a big reason why people don't talk a lot about how much carbon the military emits is because they're too busy talking about the massive human cost. But this is kind of silly; a lot of Bitcoin's critics do criticize the military. I'm not here as part of a conspiracy to prop up government invasions of other countries, I just think your "currency" is bad and has fundamental flaws. > Will you stay silent on the subject now that you are aware of the fully-loaded costs of supporting the USD as the world’s reserve currency? Bitcoin is not going to replace USD. It's technologically incapable of doing that; it only supports 7 transactions per second and the last time anybody tried to fix that problem, the community hard-forked and had a giant schism. Because of course they did, Bitcoin isn't optimizing for transaction speed or transaction fees and most of the community doesn't care about any of the high-minded goals that Bitcoin was originally sold on. They just want an asset that goes up in value, so eventually they can convert it back into USD. This could be a longer conversation, but while Bitcoin was originally based around some ideals like democratic access to currency and reduction of reliance on military/global power, I feel like it's kind of silly now that we can look at how Bitcoin has played out to say that the whole movement is still about raising people up and democratizing finance. Bitcoin is primarily a speculative market, it's not driven by ideals at this point. Also just as a sidenote, but even in a world without traditional finance, most countries would still probably have a military; so even just the core idea of "tanks use too much power" is a little weird to me given that the US is not going to throw away all of its tanks if it transitions off of USD. Bitcoin does not get rid of the concept of exploitation, the US can still steal another country's oil and then sell it for Bitcoin. > Bitcoin uses less energy than the world’s hair dryers Not sure if you intended this to sound like a small amount of power, but that is a heckin large amount of power in order to secure such a small proportion of the world's wealth that it has next to no impact on the current exploitative measures taken to secure other existing currencies. Bitcoin does not do enough to address the exploitative nature and human cost of securities like gold in order to justify its enormous energy expenditure, and there is little reason to believe that it is capable of scaling to the point where it could address those problems, and there is a ton of reason to believe that if it did manage to scale to that point it would in the process start consuming even more energy. Even taking everything you've said at face value and assuming that Bitcoin is actually just straight-up liberating value from a highly exploitative system (rather than in more than a few ways participating in that same system) -- no; quite frankly, it is not worth using the same amount of energy as Sweden just to liberate a measly 3% of the world's wealth. That is too inefficient, it costs way too much power to do way too little. Come up with a more efficient way to secure that wealth, preferably one that actually scales.
- lowkey 4y ago
  No moving of goalposts here. OP claimed that Bitcoin’s primary purpose was transactions. I countered that the primary purpose was network security not txs, though pointed out two transaction use cases where Bitcoin beats every other payment method or monetary system. You compared Bitcoin’s energy use to nation states. I compared it with hair dryers and one nation’s military, while pointing out that the US military’s energy consumption was only a small portion of it’s fully loaded cost in terms of externalities (others being: death, destruction, fossil fuel usage greater than any other entity to ever exist) Again, no moving of goalposts. Simply fair comparisons of different forms of money. Bitcoin never claimed to replace all uses of USD or gold, but it does reduce the total external costs in many important ways while providing the world with a powerful new alternative that is peer to peer, can be self-custodied, and has a fixed low inflation rate from now to infinity making it harder money than any that has ever existed.
  - danShumway 4y ago
    > Bitcoin never claimed to replace all uses of USD or gold If Bitcoin is not going to replace USD or get rid of the externalities of USD, then it is a waste of time to argue that Bitcoin is more efficient because it doesn't have those externalities. You are propping up a currency that is less efficient than gold and USD in terms of energy usage, and does next to nothing to prevent the negative externalities of those systems. > but it does reduce the total external costs in many important ways while providing the world with a powerful new alternative Bitcoin in its current form is not an alternative to USD, it is at best a system that complements USD, and I see no evidence at all that the existence of Bitcoin has reduced military presence anywhere in the world. You don't get to act like Bitcoin can subtract the negative externalities of USD from its environmental ledger when it is not currently reducing those externalities. > peer to peer, can be self-custodies, and has a fixed low inflation rate from now to infinity making it harder money than any that has ever existed. I'm not going to get into it, but I disagree that Bitcoin is P2P in the way that most people actually care about P2P; Bitcoin relies on a mostly functioning Internet, there is no way to securely make payments on the blockchain without eventually connecting back to the rest of the network and reaching network consensus. This is in contrast to what people usually think of when they talk about P2P networks, where information often does not need to propagate to the rest of the network at all. The most exciting work in P2P networks are in areas where constant consensus isn't required at all. I also think the inflation claim is ridiculous given that Bitcoin's price fluctuates wildly. And the inflation is not "to infinity", Bitcoin is set to eventually run out of coins on purpose. The inflation is set to eventually reduce to zero. Bitcoin is a deflationary asset, not an inflationary asset. This is actually one of the things that turns out to be bad for Bitcoin as a currency, Bitcoin has been a good demonstration in a lot of ways as to why a deflationary asset is inherently not particularly well suited for transactions. And again, by your own admission, Bitcoin is primarily a store of value, not primarily a currency designed to be regularly exchanged. If you want to talk about Bitcoin like it's an alternative to USD, then I'm going to criticize the fact that its transaction rate and per-transaction environmental costs are garbage and unscalable.
rspeele 4y ago
It is ridiculous to blame USD for costs that would still exist, arguably not even reduced in size, if we didn't use USD.
- lowkey 4y ago
  Without having to defend the USD as the global reserve currency, the US military would still have to exist, yes, but not nearly on the scale it does today. Here is a US general Wesley Clarke explaining in his own words in 2000, before 9/11, how the US was already planning to invade 7 countries, all of whom had the nerve to act outside USD hegemony and some of which had the audacity to run their own central banks outside the approved system. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Knt3rKTqCk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Knt3rKTqCk
  - danShumway 4y ago
    > and some of which had the audacity to run their own central banks outside the approved system The US was not pushing to invade those countries in order to prop up the USD, it was pushing to invade them because of aid they were sending to other countries and to assert control over those areas. Where are you getting from that Wesley Clarke video that this was primarily about currency or that aid/funding going over Bitcoin would remove those motivations? I mentioned elsewhere that you can buy and sell oil with Bitcoin, but it bears repeating: Bitcoin doesn't make exploitation, theft, or manipulation impossible. The United States does a lot of unethical stuff in order to secure value and control, and moving from USD to Bitcoin doesn't get rid of the concept of value. It doesn't mean that the United States would magically stop wanting to control the financial infrastructure around currency exchanges, it doesn't mean it would stop caring about raw materials and economic agreements with other countries. There's nothing in the Bitcoin protocol that prevents it from being spent on guns, oil, or bribes. There's nothing in the Bitcoin protocol that prevents it from being funneled to dictators, or used to fund coups or tear down governments. The US didn't sabotage a bunch of countries after the Cold War because they had a different currency than us, it sabotaged them because they were Communist and the US didn't like the form of government they had chosen. Of course, there would be benefits to a decentralized currency, and if Bitcoin was good at being a decentralized currency then there would be benefits to moving to Bitcoin. But even if Bitcoin was a good decentralized currency, moving to it would not magically get rid of any of the underlying motivations countries have for wielding geopolitical power in unethical ways. It's not that having more ways to move money around or make payments wouldn't probably be good for the world. But it wouldn't solve every problem, or even most problems. Even with tariffs: a lot of the mechanisms the US uses for tariffs target shipping, currency exchanges, raw materials, and market access. If Bitcoin could help circumvent anything it would be tariffs, but in practice it's not even particularly amazing at circumventing them on a large scale. And I don't see much evidence that Bitcoin actually does get rid of motivations to prop up governments or artificially shape geopolitical environments around market access. That's not to say that the USD doesn't matter at all, just... not as much as you're characterizing. Cars don't run on Bitcoin, they run on cheap oil.

by lowkey 4y ago

danShumway 4y ago

> If we are comparing energy consumption of monetary systems I think we also need to look at the incumbent system’s costs with open eyes. This is kind of goalpost moving. It's fair to ask about the human costs of other monetary systems, but I thought we were just trying to determine whether or not Bitcoin was efficient. It's not. But whatever, I'll follow that goalpost for a little while. In isolation I do think that criticism of government policy to value/devalue and secure traditional currencies would be a good argument... if Bitcoin was well positioned to be a replacement for traditional currency. But by your own admission Bitcoin isn't primarily a system for transactions, it's a system for storing value (actually I would argue it's primarily a speculative asset, not a traditional value store, but whatever, it doesn't matter). Bitcoin is not in its current state trying to replace dollars, because dollars need to be good at transactions, and Bitcoin is bad at transactions: it's wildly inefficient and environmentally unfriendly, it's slow and has high fees, it requires you to essentially move off chain to get anything approaching a normal transaction experience. > Isn’t it curious that so little attention is focused on reducing the military’s dependence on fossil fuels? If the biggest problem with the US military complex was its environmental cost, I would sleep better at night. I think a big reason why people don't talk a lot about how much carbon the military emits is because they're too busy talking about the massive human cost. But this is kind of silly; a lot of Bitcoin's critics do criticize the military. I'm not here as part of a conspiracy to prop up government invasions of other countries, I just think your "currency" is bad and has fundamental flaws. > Will you stay silent on the subject now that you are aware of the fully-loaded costs of supporting the USD as the world’s reserve currency? Bitcoin is not going to replace USD. It's technologically incapable of doing that; it only supports 7 transactions per second and the last time anybody tried to fix that problem, the community hard-forked and had a giant schism. Because of course they did, Bitcoin isn't optimizing for transaction speed or transaction fees and most of the community doesn't care about any of the high-minded goals that Bitcoin was originally sold on. They just want an asset that goes up in value, so eventually they can convert it back into USD. This could be a longer conversation, but while Bitcoin was originally based around some ideals like democratic access to currency and reduction of reliance on military/global power, I feel like it's kind of silly now that we can look at how Bitcoin has played out to say that the whole movement is still about raising people up and democratizing finance. Bitcoin is primarily a speculative market, it's not driven by ideals at this point. Also just as a sidenote, but even in a world without traditional finance, most countries would still probably have a military; so even just the core idea of "tanks use too much power" is a little weird to me given that the US is not going to throw away all of its tanks if it transitions off of USD. Bitcoin does not get rid of the concept of exploitation, the US can still steal another country's oil and then sell it for Bitcoin. > Bitcoin uses less energy than the world’s hair dryers Not sure if you intended this to sound like a small amount of power, but that is a heckin large amount of power in order to secure such a small proportion of the world's wealth that it has next to no impact on the current exploitative measures taken to secure other existing currencies. Bitcoin does not do enough to address the exploitative nature and human cost of securities like gold in order to justify its enormous energy expenditure, and there is little reason to believe that it is capable of scaling to the point where it could address those problems, and there is a ton of reason to believe that if it did manage to scale to that point it would in the process start consuming even more energy. Even taking everything you've said at face value and assuming that Bitcoin is actually just straight-up liberating value from a highly exploitative system (rather than in more than a few ways participating in that same system) -- no; quite frankly, it is not worth using the same amount of energy as Sweden just to liberate a measly 3% of the world's wealth. That is too inefficient, it costs way too much power to do way too little. Come up with a more efficient way to secure that wealth, preferably one that actually scales.

lowkey 4y ago
No moving of goalposts here. OP claimed that Bitcoin’s primary purpose was transactions. I countered that the primary purpose was network security not txs, though pointed out two transaction use cases where Bitcoin beats every other payment method or monetary system. You compared Bitcoin’s energy use to nation states. I compared it with hair dryers and one nation’s military, while pointing out that the US military’s energy consumption was only a small portion of it’s fully loaded cost in terms of externalities (others being: death, destruction, fossil fuel usage greater than any other entity to ever exist) Again, no moving of goalposts. Simply fair comparisons of different forms of money. Bitcoin never claimed to replace all uses of USD or gold, but it does reduce the total external costs in many important ways while providing the world with a powerful new alternative that is peer to peer, can be self-custodied, and has a fixed low inflation rate from now to infinity making it harder money than any that has ever existed.
- danShumway 4y ago
  > Bitcoin never claimed to replace all uses of USD or gold If Bitcoin is not going to replace USD or get rid of the externalities of USD, then it is a waste of time to argue that Bitcoin is more efficient because it doesn't have those externalities. You are propping up a currency that is less efficient than gold and USD in terms of energy usage, and does next to nothing to prevent the negative externalities of those systems. > but it does reduce the total external costs in many important ways while providing the world with a powerful new alternative Bitcoin in its current form is not an alternative to USD, it is at best a system that complements USD, and I see no evidence at all that the existence of Bitcoin has reduced military presence anywhere in the world. You don't get to act like Bitcoin can subtract the negative externalities of USD from its environmental ledger when it is not currently reducing those externalities. > peer to peer, can be self-custodies, and has a fixed low inflation rate from now to infinity making it harder money than any that has ever existed. I'm not going to get into it, but I disagree that Bitcoin is P2P in the way that most people actually care about P2P; Bitcoin relies on a mostly functioning Internet, there is no way to securely make payments on the blockchain without eventually connecting back to the rest of the network and reaching network consensus. This is in contrast to what people usually think of when they talk about P2P networks, where information often does not need to propagate to the rest of the network at all. The most exciting work in P2P networks are in areas where constant consensus isn't required at all. I also think the inflation claim is ridiculous given that Bitcoin's price fluctuates wildly. And the inflation is not "to infinity", Bitcoin is set to eventually run out of coins on purpose. The inflation is set to eventually reduce to zero. Bitcoin is a deflationary asset, not an inflationary asset. This is actually one of the things that turns out to be bad for Bitcoin as a currency, Bitcoin has been a good demonstration in a lot of ways as to why a deflationary asset is inherently not particularly well suited for transactions. And again, by your own admission, Bitcoin is primarily a store of value, not primarily a currency designed to be regularly exchanged. If you want to talk about Bitcoin like it's an alternative to USD, then I'm going to criticize the fact that its transaction rate and per-transaction environmental costs are garbage and unscalable.

rspeele 4y ago

It is ridiculous to blame USD for costs that would still exist, arguably not even reduced in size, if we didn't use USD.

lowkey 4y ago
Without having to defend the USD as the global reserve currency, the US military would still have to exist, yes, but not nearly on the scale it does today. Here is a US general Wesley Clarke explaining in his own words in 2000, before 9/11, how the US was already planning to invade 7 countries, all of whom had the nerve to act outside USD hegemony and some of which had the audacity to run their own central banks outside the approved system. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Knt3rKTqCk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Knt3rKTqCk
- danShumway 4y ago
  > and some of which had the audacity to run their own central banks outside the approved system The US was not pushing to invade those countries in order to prop up the USD, it was pushing to invade them because of aid they were sending to other countries and to assert control over those areas. Where are you getting from that Wesley Clarke video that this was primarily about currency or that aid/funding going over Bitcoin would remove those motivations? I mentioned elsewhere that you can buy and sell oil with Bitcoin, but it bears repeating: Bitcoin doesn't make exploitation, theft, or manipulation impossible. The United States does a lot of unethical stuff in order to secure value and control, and moving from USD to Bitcoin doesn't get rid of the concept of value. It doesn't mean that the United States would magically stop wanting to control the financial infrastructure around currency exchanges, it doesn't mean it would stop caring about raw materials and economic agreements with other countries. There's nothing in the Bitcoin protocol that prevents it from being spent on guns, oil, or bribes. There's nothing in the Bitcoin protocol that prevents it from being funneled to dictators, or used to fund coups or tear down governments. The US didn't sabotage a bunch of countries after the Cold War because they had a different currency than us, it sabotaged them because they were Communist and the US didn't like the form of government they had chosen. Of course, there would be benefits to a decentralized currency, and if Bitcoin was good at being a decentralized currency then there would be benefits to moving to Bitcoin. But even if Bitcoin was a good decentralized currency, moving to it would not magically get rid of any of the underlying motivations countries have for wielding geopolitical power in unethical ways. It's not that having more ways to move money around or make payments wouldn't probably be good for the world. But it wouldn't solve every problem, or even most problems. Even with tariffs: a lot of the mechanisms the US uses for tariffs target shipping, currency exchanges, raw materials, and market access. If Bitcoin could help circumvent anything it would be tariffs, but in practice it's not even particularly amazing at circumventing them on a large scale. And I don't see much evidence that Bitcoin actually does get rid of motivations to prop up governments or artificially shape geopolitical environments around market access. That's not to say that the USD doesn't matter at all, just... not as much as you're characterizing. Cars don't run on Bitcoin, they run on cheap oil.