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Discussion: Website claims to “require” Windows or Mac but doesn't block Linux

7 points by neelc 4y ago

I may have discussed this at other places in the past. I run FreeBSD on my desktop, and am a customer of Chase Bank (along with a few others), mainly since my family set me up there. Chase claims to require Windows or macOS for their online banking, but doesn't block GNU/Linux or Chrome OS, while kicking out OSes like FreeBSD and OpenBSD. I could log in fine on multiple Linux distros fine, and on FreeBSD with a "user agent switcher". I asked Chase if they could unblock FreeBSD the same way, even mentioning Linux and user agent switchers. Chase gave their usual BS about "system requirements" and "our website is working as designed". The person who talked to me was in fact pretty rude. While I can use a user agent switcher and it works fine that way, and most websites (even banks) don't whitelist OSes. I find it absurd that Chase can claim that they require Windows or macOS at every level, but not block Linux or Chrome OS. I'm betting that either blocking Linux and Chrome OS would make headlines, or alternatively that Chase uses a FOSS library that blocks BSD but not Linux or Chrome OS. I'm also betting that they couldn't unblock FreeBSD if they unblock Linux since enterprises are generally very stiff and inflexible with requirements. If the higher ups say "only Windows or Mac" devs can't deviate. A FreeBSD user like me is well aware of the whitelist, but a casual Ubuntu or Chromebook user may not even know these "requirements" exist since both "Linux" or "CrOS" are whitelisted. It could go away when Chase's website is redesigned. Many websites in the early-00s depended on IE6 and now nobody does on the public Internet. Doesn't mean it will go away. Look at AT&T Fiber's 802.1X or Verizon's and AT&T's IMEI whitelist, nobody else globally does whitelisting to the same extent, or even Verizon FiOS and T-Mobile. I think Bank of America says something similar to Chase but fortunately doesn't really enforce it the same way. I don't use BoA, though. I also remember an ACT prep website as a teen which only allowed Windows or Mac when I used FreeBSD (w/o plugins), but that aged very poorly in today's era of Chrome OS-based schools. There may be many more examples, feel free to discuss here. Yes, I could use another bank, and I'm attempting to, but my family's weird money management system is a big roadblock making it harder for me versus most people. I moved one direct deposit and yet it caused chaos. Chase is sticky for my family like the Apple ecosystem is for many. We even have "private client" status. Not an iPhone user, I could be a teenager today and want to run LineageOS, but my family is tied into the Apple ecosystem making it hard to leave an iPhone, just a bit easier for me with Chase since user agent switchers exist, but you can't get an Android to connect to iMessage or other iServices.

al_borland 4y ago
I've run into business that list their supported systems just based on what they test for. They test for Windows and macOS because that covers 98% of the market (give or take). Spending a lot of time/money testing every Linux distro, BSD, or other niche OS isn't going to be worth their time, even if it might technically work. I ran into this with 2FA. A service I used said I need to use a certain 2FA app, but I didn't want to end up with multiple apps. I was new to 2FA at the time. I contacted support and they told me they had heard of other people who have used the app I had (for work) and it worked fine, but since they didn't do testing with it, they couldn't say it was officially supported. At the end of the day, it worked fine. I was happy the support people were cool and not just reading off a script telling me to use what their support doc said. I learned a lot about 2FA from that conversation. I think when you decide to use something like FreeBSD you also sign up dealing with some things like this. I've even run into this on macOS, where I've had to change my user agent to use certain sites (not so much these days, but it happened a lot in the past). It could be that the features you're using work fine, but not all features work, which is why they have it locked down a bit more. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. When I was younger I ran FreeBSD for a while, but as I got older it wasn't worth it to me. I run macOS now. It's still Unix at the core, but offers me better support without having to jump through hoops when dealing with the real world. The idealistic part of me wants to use some form of Linux or BSD, but with mobile being a big thing now, wanting data to sync, and needing to work with certain businesses... I just can't be bothered. If I have a Linux box running from time to time it's as a hobby system, not as my daily driver.
- neelc 4y ago
  >I've run into business that list their supported systems just based on what they test for I bet that Chase is probably using a FOSS library that didn't whitelist FreeBSD, but whitelisted Linux and Chrome OS, and that while Chase only tested Windows and Mac the real "supported" systems is the FOSS library. They may claim "our website is working as designed" since it's a FOSS library or proprietary service outside Chase's control. It's absurd if Chase wants to block FreeBSD, but easier to understand if a third-party service or library blocked BSD. Or maybe Chase expects BSD users to use user agent switchers. Reminds me of an issue with CenturyLink, where it actually was the Calix ONT causing a TCP connection limit (and a JTAG cable solved with cloning the ONT). I also remember when Verizon blocked Tor middle relay IPs from their website, but Verizon was very good in escalating it to the responsible security vendor. >I think when you decide to use something like FreeBSD you also sign up dealing with some things like this. That's true. I have met many software engineers who don't know what FreeBSD is, namely web developers. They can't test a system they have no clue about. Many people inside Microsoft (where I work) know what FreeBSD is, but at smaller tech companies, they have no clue. They know about Linux, heck my high school economics teacher knows what Linux was. I could ask a few questions about Kubernetes and they could easily answer, but FreeBSD, and "what's that?" >When I was younger I ran FreeBSD for a while, but as I got older it wasn't worth it to me. I've run FreeBSD for many years, being a committer myself, but am getting more involved in the Android modding scene which makes me have to maintain a Linux partition. Not that I really did anything in the Android world yet, it could also fall of my radar and I give up, but still. I boot into Linux LiveUSBs when I want to flash and root my Android phone, or install LineageOS, mainly since FreeBSD's adb package has been broken for years and I never bothered to fix it myself. I can admit being a BSD user is tough. BSD is 10 years behind Linux and Windows in terms of polish, due to a small userbase. Sometimes I think about switching to Linux, but nothing ever comes of this. On an old "free" ThinkPad picked from my workplace's recycling bin, FreeBSD runs perfectly, with blazing fast (meaning 150 Mbps real world) Wi-Fi. But on a $1500 HP Spectre, there are a couple of papercuts, mainly unreliable ADSL2+-speed Wi-Fi.

7 points by neelc 4y ago

al_borland 4y ago

I've run into business that list their supported systems just based on what they test for. They test for Windows and macOS because that covers 98% of the market (give or take). Spending a lot of time/money testing every Linux distro, BSD, or other niche OS isn't going to be worth their time, even if it might technically work. I ran into this with 2FA. A service I used said I need to use a certain 2FA app, but I didn't want to end up with multiple apps. I was new to 2FA at the time. I contacted support and they told me they had heard of other people who have used the app I had (for work) and it worked fine, but since they didn't do testing with it, they couldn't say it was officially supported. At the end of the day, it worked fine. I was happy the support people were cool and not just reading off a script telling me to use what their support doc said. I learned a lot about 2FA from that conversation. I think when you decide to use something like FreeBSD you also sign up dealing with some things like this. I've even run into this on macOS, where I've had to change my user agent to use certain sites (not so much these days, but it happened a lot in the past). It could be that the features you're using work fine, but not all features work, which is why they have it locked down a bit more. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. When I was younger I ran FreeBSD for a while, but as I got older it wasn't worth it to me. I run macOS now. It's still Unix at the core, but offers me better support without having to jump through hoops when dealing with the real world. The idealistic part of me wants to use some form of Linux or BSD, but with mobile being a big thing now, wanting data to sync, and needing to work with certain businesses... I just can't be bothered. If I have a Linux box running from time to time it's as a hobby system, not as my daily driver.

neelc 4y ago
>I've run into business that list their supported systems just based on what they test for I bet that Chase is probably using a FOSS library that didn't whitelist FreeBSD, but whitelisted Linux and Chrome OS, and that while Chase only tested Windows and Mac the real "supported" systems is the FOSS library. They may claim "our website is working as designed" since it's a FOSS library or proprietary service outside Chase's control. It's absurd if Chase wants to block FreeBSD, but easier to understand if a third-party service or library blocked BSD. Or maybe Chase expects BSD users to use user agent switchers. Reminds me of an issue with CenturyLink, where it actually was the Calix ONT causing a TCP connection limit (and a JTAG cable solved with cloning the ONT). I also remember when Verizon blocked Tor middle relay IPs from their website, but Verizon was very good in escalating it to the responsible security vendor. >I think when you decide to use something like FreeBSD you also sign up dealing with some things like this. That's true. I have met many software engineers who don't know what FreeBSD is, namely web developers. They can't test a system they have no clue about. Many people inside Microsoft (where I work) know what FreeBSD is, but at smaller tech companies, they have no clue. They know about Linux, heck my high school economics teacher knows what Linux was. I could ask a few questions about Kubernetes and they could easily answer, but FreeBSD, and "what's that?" >When I was younger I ran FreeBSD for a while, but as I got older it wasn't worth it to me. I've run FreeBSD for many years, being a committer myself, but am getting more involved in the Android modding scene which makes me have to maintain a Linux partition. Not that I really did anything in the Android world yet, it could also fall of my radar and I give up, but still. I boot into Linux LiveUSBs when I want to flash and root my Android phone, or install LineageOS, mainly since FreeBSD's adb package has been broken for years and I never bothered to fix it myself. I can admit being a BSD user is tough. BSD is 10 years behind Linux and Windows in terms of polish, due to a small userbase. Sometimes I think about switching to Linux, but nothing ever comes of this. On an old "free" ThinkPad picked from my workplace's recycling bin, FreeBSD runs perfectly, with blazing fast (meaning 150 Mbps real world) Wi-Fi. But on a $1500 HP Spectre, there are a couple of papercuts, mainly unreliable ADSL2+-speed Wi-Fi.