8 ms·

What did you witness?

roflyear 4y ago
Personally, I've witnessed issues with the Indian caste system in many large corporations. From Johnson & Johnson - where there is actually a development team - where they hired other Indians who were horribly unqualified (multiple times they were poached from IT support - I enjoy seeing people move up in tech, but they were entry level techs with no programming experience) and almost exclusively hired other Indians to a larger tech firm in the US (where I am now) that is not Google or Cisco. I've also seen this in smaller companies and startups, but there it is usually the Indian CTO or manager hiring an Indian contracting company, where big surprise, there is some prior relationship. I haven't ever had these arrangements work out. I have nothing against Indian people - but this is an issue in tech, and I feel like it is becoming a larger issue.
- known 4y ago
- quadrifoliate 4y ago
  I hear a lot of instances of favoritism or nepotism in what you describe, possibly even corruption, but not much sounds like caste-based discrimination. "Incompetent person hires a lot of people they know instead of qualified candidates" is not really what's being discussed here, and I think Ms. Soundararajan would agree. As a side note, this illustrates quite neatly why most of us who come from India are somewhat reluctant to talk about caste and explain how typical discrimination takes place, because Americans will try to slot it into their preconceived notions about class or race-based discrimination, and tend to jump to conclusions like you're doing here, complete with an "I have nothing against Indian people" disclaimer at the end (Really?). So, a reasonable question is, "Well, what does a real instance of caste-based discrimination look like?" Imagine that among a bunch of Indian candidates, an Indian hiring manager hires only Indian people who order vegetarian meals at lunch, and rejects any Indian candidate who orders a dish containing meat. Also, suppose you see this happening pretty frequently, and the manager inexplicably rejected some pretty great candidates, and the only common factor is that they ordered meat at lunch. Then it might be caste discrimination! (please please please note the operative word might, I really don't want to start a witch hunt here) But something like that sounds pretty weird and far-fetched to most Americans, so it's hard to communicate what it looks like, let alone explain the somewhat complicated backing reasons.
  - nondravidian 4y ago
    Except that this is not just weird and far-fetched. It is also very unusual for such diet-based discrimination to happen. I am a vegetarian. All managers (with the exception of one) who hired me in the past 12 years (in India) were not vegetarians. Unlikely that they saw vegetarians discriminating, and did not practice a little reverse discrimination themselves. The problem today in India is not that there is a caste competition between one caste and another, it is that the IT field is desperately in need of developers and testers. And, the employers are unable to pay the high salaries being demanded.
    - quadrifoliate 4y ago
      The instance being described is mainly in the US, where the talk described was given. I know that such discrimination is highly unlikely, especially in the Midwest where there aren't a ton of Indian employees to begin with, and probably even fewer Indian hiring managers. However, I was merely stating it as an example of caste discrimination – which you seem to grasp readily, probably because you're Indian or work in India. Explaining to an American person how diet-based discrimination can be an instance of caste discrimination is harder than you'd think. The OP is basically going "I saw an Indian person doing this bad thing, so it must be caste-based discrimination!", which I'm trying to correct by citing an example of (so to say) actual discrimination on the basis of caste.
      - alex_smart 4y ago
        >So, a reasonable question is, "Well, what does a real instance of caste-based discrimination look like?" Given that the example came in the context of this question, the answer is a resounding "not like that".
  - roflyear 4y ago
    I think hiring other Indians is the core of it. These aren't people they know, outside of recognizing their last name.
  - rramadass 4y ago
- jeffrallen 4y ago
  I have seen bad hiring in Cisco, which seemed to be based on membership in some sort of clique centered on Pune. I don't know if it was normal "friends hiring friends" or something else.
- rmk 4y ago
  This is a case of corruption, which is endemic in Indian culture. There are countless examples of mid-high level Indian Managers convincing management to move work to bodyshops from which they either receive kickbacks, are started by close friends so they get to profit also, or use as a side-channel to push their own people (relatives, immigrants from back home) into the organization. It's shockingly widespread and because the management structures at many tech and IT companies are Indian, no-one bats an eyelid. This is one example of foreign cultures actually degrading American work culture. There are a few others in this category.

Personally, I've witnessed issues with the Indian caste system in many large corporations. From Johnson & Johnson - where there is actually a development team - where they hired other Indians who were horribly unqualified (multiple times they were poached from IT support - I enjoy seeing people move up in tech, but they were entry level techs with no programming experience) and almost exclusively hired other Indians to a larger tech firm in the US (where I am now) that is not Google or Cisco. I've also seen this in smaller companies and startups, but there it is usually the Indian CTO or manager hiring an Indian contracting company, where big surprise, there is some prior relationship. I haven't ever had these arrangements work out. I have nothing against Indian people - but this is an issue in tech, and I feel like it is becoming a larger issue.

known 4y ago
quadrifoliate 4y ago
I hear a lot of instances of favoritism or nepotism in what you describe, possibly even corruption, but not much sounds like caste-based discrimination. "Incompetent person hires a lot of people they know instead of qualified candidates" is not really what's being discussed here, and I think Ms. Soundararajan would agree. As a side note, this illustrates quite neatly why most of us who come from India are somewhat reluctant to talk about caste and explain how typical discrimination takes place, because Americans will try to slot it into their preconceived notions about class or race-based discrimination, and tend to jump to conclusions like you're doing here, complete with an "I have nothing against Indian people" disclaimer at the end (Really?). So, a reasonable question is, "Well, what does a real instance of caste-based discrimination look like?" Imagine that among a bunch of Indian candidates, an Indian hiring manager hires only Indian people who order vegetarian meals at lunch, and rejects any Indian candidate who orders a dish containing meat. Also, suppose you see this happening pretty frequently, and the manager inexplicably rejected some pretty great candidates, and the only common factor is that they ordered meat at lunch. Then it might be caste discrimination! (please please please note the operative word might, I really don't want to start a witch hunt here) But something like that sounds pretty weird and far-fetched to most Americans, so it's hard to communicate what it looks like, let alone explain the somewhat complicated backing reasons.
- nondravidian 4y ago
  Except that this is not just weird and far-fetched. It is also very unusual for such diet-based discrimination to happen. I am a vegetarian. All managers (with the exception of one) who hired me in the past 12 years (in India) were not vegetarians. Unlikely that they saw vegetarians discriminating, and did not practice a little reverse discrimination themselves. The problem today in India is not that there is a caste competition between one caste and another, it is that the IT field is desperately in need of developers and testers. And, the employers are unable to pay the high salaries being demanded.
  - quadrifoliate 4y ago
    The instance being described is mainly in the US, where the talk described was given. I know that such discrimination is highly unlikely, especially in the Midwest where there aren't a ton of Indian employees to begin with, and probably even fewer Indian hiring managers. However, I was merely stating it as an example of caste discrimination – which you seem to grasp readily, probably because you're Indian or work in India. Explaining to an American person how diet-based discrimination can be an instance of caste discrimination is harder than you'd think. The OP is basically going "I saw an Indian person doing this bad thing, so it must be caste-based discrimination!", which I'm trying to correct by citing an example of (so to say) actual discrimination on the basis of caste.
    - alex_smart 4y ago
      >So, a reasonable question is, "Well, what does a real instance of caste-based discrimination look like?" Given that the example came in the context of this question, the answer is a resounding "not like that".
- roflyear 4y ago
  I think hiring other Indians is the core of it. These aren't people they know, outside of recognizing their last name.
- rramadass 4y ago
jeffrallen 4y ago
I have seen bad hiring in Cisco, which seemed to be based on membership in some sort of clique centered on Pune. I don't know if it was normal "friends hiring friends" or something else.
rmk 4y ago
This is a case of corruption, which is endemic in Indian culture. There are countless examples of mid-high level Indian Managers convincing management to move work to bodyshops from which they either receive kickbacks, are started by close friends so they get to profit also, or use as a side-channel to push their own people (relatives, immigrants from back home) into the organization. It's shockingly widespread and because the management structures at many tech and IT companies are Indian, no-one bats an eyelid. This is one example of foreign cultures actually degrading American work culture. There are a few others in this category.