4 ms·

This is a great way to put it. Lying is 100% part of the game with employment. It continues even when you're still at the workplace. Are really people so asini

This is a great way to put it. Lying is 100% part of the game with employment. It continues even when you're still at the workplace. Are really people so asinine to believe that hiring managers aren't lying through their teeth the entire time they talk to you? I guess HN is full of people who are naive or have malicious intent. If anyone here thinks their manager truly cares about them (and you work in SV) - you're naive.

gumby 4y ago
What is the incentive for a hiring manager to lie? What could they get from it?
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  More and better candidates than if they’re completely honest about their company? A promotion because they managed to keep wages down for staff? A higher salary or more stock for the same reason?
  - bradlys 4y ago
    Legitimately wonder why people find this so so hard to understand. Has no one ever been a manager? Have you never worked with managers who had to do these things? I've known many managers who admit to having to do all of these things. Some of them are proud that they did it - some are ashamed because they didn't want to but ultimately had to otherwise they would've gotten fired. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether you do it because you enjoy it or because you have to - what matters is that you're doing it and someone is on the receiving end. Genuinely - how many of you have ever done hiring while searching for a new company yourself? HN is truly full of the self-indulgent and self-righteous to think they're not doing this themselves or that this is wonderful to be around.
    - wins32767 4y ago
      > Genuinely - how many of you have ever done hiring while searching for a new company yourself? There are circumstances where this is ok and others where it isn't. Is it ok to hire for a company that you're retiring from? How about one where you can't continue to advance but you think is a great environment? What if you were at a startup that got acquired by a megacorp and you focus on hiring people who enjoy a big company environment? IMO, so long as you are transparent about the pros and cons of the position, it's perfectly ethical and reasonable.
      - bradlys 4y ago
        > IMO, so long as you are transparent about the pros and cons of the position, it's perfectly ethical and reasonable. How often are people genuinely leaving companies because they think it's a great environment but it's just not for them? How often? 80%? 50%? 1%? (I'm guessing closer to 1% than 50%)
        wins32767 4y ago
        When hiring, I really strive to figure out what makes my positions special and then find people that are a good fit for what I can offer rather than trying to find some platonic ideal "best" candidate. So for me, other than a toxic situation, I'm very happy pulling people into a role at a company I'm leaving. But at this point in my career I'm likely much more deliberate than average about making sure a role is giving me what I need as well as more deliberate than most managers about trying to find good all-dimension fits for my positions.
        confidantlake 4y ago
        I guess I am in the 1%. My company has a great environment but the pay is much lower than FAANG. So I both am applying elsewhere but can also recommend it.
  - gumby 4y ago
    If you lie about the job and hire someone who doesn’t like the reality they’ll just find another job and now you have to start the hiring process all over. That doesn’t seem like a win to me.
    - bradlys 4y ago
      This seems really out of touch. ICs absolutely despise interviewing. Half of my current team has expressed that they want to quit but isn't going to because they are so afraid of interviewing again. Many are coming up on 1-yr tenure and still want to leave but they'll be there for 2+ years because they hate interviewing that much. They're deathly afraid of it. The rest who want to stay are only there because they're making incredibly high amounts of money thanks to being at the company just before it went public. (They joined 5+ years after the company was founded - hardly part of the original gang)
- erosenbe0 4y ago
  Any time a company or team needs short-term superficial progress you may see the lying and then the churn mill. Stakeholders or taxpayers are duped over the long-term but someone is clearly making out no worse for the wear.
sonofhans 4y ago
Wow, that is breathtakingly cynical. I’ve hired many people over decades and I’ve never lied to a single one of them. And in the dozen or so tech jobs I’ve had, only one hiring manager (the CEO!) has lied to me. Lastly, I only work places where my manager does give a shit about me. I’ve left a couple gigs because I learned I was wrong about that, but seen it confirmed in plenty of others. Your advice is not universal. Consider broadening your sample size.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  This is the kind of thing that people tell themselves, to act as an anodyne for their own behavior. In my case, I have always acted with the highest personal standards of Ethics and Integrity. Frequently, the favor has not been returned, and I have had to learn to deal with it. I will say that my Integrity was directly relevant to my career. I worked for a Japanese corporation, and they knew they could trust me. My employees also knew they could trust me. It's entirely possible to live in the corporate world, without surrendering your moral backbone.
  - sonofhans 4y ago
    Yes! I totally agree. The times that I’ve been treated unethically do not excuse similar behavior from me. It’s an awful race to the bottom. I talk about this with my son. A long reputation for consistent, ethical behavior is difficult to get, easy to lose, and impossible to over-value.
- ditonal 4y ago
  If you can label them breathtakingly cynical, I’d label you breathtakingly naive. And label the grandparent experienced and realistic. When it comes to being “default alive” there is _zero_ consideration for the human impact. I could not agree more strongly that there’s all sorts of social mores around employee behaving well but virtually zero around executive behavior (you put an exclamation after CEO as if it should be surprising, when the opposite should be). I’ve read these CEOs brag about “generous severance” that turns out to be 3 weeks. WSJ reported less than a week ago Coinbase execs netted BILLIONS in PERSONAL profits to execs in the last year. Think any of that money could have been used as a rainy day fund to not fuck over people who resigned from their last job expecting to start at Coinbase? https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/coinbase-leaders-net-1-2-billion-in-share-sales-11653606214 https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/coinbase-leaders-net-1-2-bi... The amount of apologism for tech execs who act so selfishly over and over again, while the cogs are held to these insanely high standards of behavior, is infuriating. Call a spade a spade. Brian Armstrong is a selfish piece of trash who dumped hundreds of millions of his company stock for his own profit while reneging on people who took his company’s word for what it was and put their financial health in his hands.
atq2119 4y ago
This is far too extreme a position and ends up being false as a consequence. Alternatively, you've had a bad pick of managers. A human relationship with your manager with mutual care is possible. The thing to understand is this: your manager is not the business. Unless you're working in a truly tiny company, they operate under their own set of constraints and will have to make decisions they're not really happy about. If that means firing you or low-balling your salary, then sure, you may not care much for that distinction in the hurt of the moment. And maybe they really are out to get you. But if you treat your manager like an antagonist, don't be surprised if they end up doing the same to you. (HR is a different story)
- zaidf 4y ago
  Could not agree more strongly!

gumby 4y ago

What is the incentive for a hiring manager to lie? What could they get from it?

barry-cotter 4y ago
More and better candidates than if they’re completely honest about their company? A promotion because they managed to keep wages down for staff? A higher salary or more stock for the same reason?
- bradlys 4y ago
  Legitimately wonder why people find this so so hard to understand. Has no one ever been a manager? Have you never worked with managers who had to do these things? I've known many managers who admit to having to do all of these things. Some of them are proud that they did it - some are ashamed because they didn't want to but ultimately had to otherwise they would've gotten fired. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether you do it because you enjoy it or because you have to - what matters is that you're doing it and someone is on the receiving end. Genuinely - how many of you have ever done hiring while searching for a new company yourself? HN is truly full of the self-indulgent and self-righteous to think they're not doing this themselves or that this is wonderful to be around.
  - wins32767 4y ago
    > Genuinely - how many of you have ever done hiring while searching for a new company yourself? There are circumstances where this is ok and others where it isn't. Is it ok to hire for a company that you're retiring from? How about one where you can't continue to advance but you think is a great environment? What if you were at a startup that got acquired by a megacorp and you focus on hiring people who enjoy a big company environment? IMO, so long as you are transparent about the pros and cons of the position, it's perfectly ethical and reasonable.
    - bradlys 4y ago
      > IMO, so long as you are transparent about the pros and cons of the position, it's perfectly ethical and reasonable. How often are people genuinely leaving companies because they think it's a great environment but it's just not for them? How often? 80%? 50%? 1%? (I'm guessing closer to 1% than 50%)
      - wins32767 4y ago
        When hiring, I really strive to figure out what makes my positions special and then find people that are a good fit for what I can offer rather than trying to find some platonic ideal "best" candidate. So for me, other than a toxic situation, I'm very happy pulling people into a role at a company I'm leaving. But at this point in my career I'm likely much more deliberate than average about making sure a role is giving me what I need as well as more deliberate than most managers about trying to find good all-dimension fits for my positions.
      - confidantlake 4y ago
        I guess I am in the 1%. My company has a great environment but the pay is much lower than FAANG. So I both am applying elsewhere but can also recommend it.
- gumby 4y ago
  If you lie about the job and hire someone who doesn’t like the reality they’ll just find another job and now you have to start the hiring process all over. That doesn’t seem like a win to me.
  - bradlys 4y ago
    This seems really out of touch. ICs absolutely despise interviewing. Half of my current team has expressed that they want to quit but isn't going to because they are so afraid of interviewing again. Many are coming up on 1-yr tenure and still want to leave but they'll be there for 2+ years because they hate interviewing that much. They're deathly afraid of it. The rest who want to stay are only there because they're making incredibly high amounts of money thanks to being at the company just before it went public. (They joined 5+ years after the company was founded - hardly part of the original gang)
erosenbe0 4y ago
Any time a company or team needs short-term superficial progress you may see the lying and then the churn mill. Stakeholders or taxpayers are duped over the long-term but someone is clearly making out no worse for the wear.

sonofhans 4y ago

Wow, that is breathtakingly cynical. I’ve hired many people over decades and I’ve never lied to a single one of them. And in the dozen or so tech jobs I’ve had, only one hiring manager (the CEO!) has lied to me. Lastly, I only work places where my manager does give a shit about me. I’ve left a couple gigs because I learned I was wrong about that, but seen it confirmed in plenty of others. Your advice is not universal. Consider broadening your sample size.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
This is the kind of thing that people tell themselves, to act as an anodyne for their own behavior. In my case, I have always acted with the highest personal standards of Ethics and Integrity. Frequently, the favor has not been returned, and I have had to learn to deal with it. I will say that my Integrity was directly relevant to my career. I worked for a Japanese corporation, and they knew they could trust me. My employees also knew they could trust me. It's entirely possible to live in the corporate world, without surrendering your moral backbone.
- sonofhans 4y ago
  Yes! I totally agree. The times that I’ve been treated unethically do not excuse similar behavior from me. It’s an awful race to the bottom. I talk about this with my son. A long reputation for consistent, ethical behavior is difficult to get, easy to lose, and impossible to over-value.
ditonal 4y ago
If you can label them breathtakingly cynical, I’d label you breathtakingly naive. And label the grandparent experienced and realistic. When it comes to being “default alive” there is _zero_ consideration for the human impact. I could not agree more strongly that there’s all sorts of social mores around employee behaving well but virtually zero around executive behavior (you put an exclamation after CEO as if it should be surprising, when the opposite should be). I’ve read these CEOs brag about “generous severance” that turns out to be 3 weeks. WSJ reported less than a week ago Coinbase execs netted BILLIONS in PERSONAL profits to execs in the last year. Think any of that money could have been used as a rainy day fund to not fuck over people who resigned from their last job expecting to start at Coinbase? https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/coinbase-leaders-net-1-2-billion-in-share-sales-11653606214 https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/coinbase-leaders-net-1-2-bi... The amount of apologism for tech execs who act so selfishly over and over again, while the cogs are held to these insanely high standards of behavior, is infuriating. Call a spade a spade. Brian Armstrong is a selfish piece of trash who dumped hundreds of millions of his company stock for his own profit while reneging on people who took his company’s word for what it was and put their financial health in his hands.

atq2119 4y ago

This is far too extreme a position and ends up being false as a consequence. Alternatively, you've had a bad pick of managers. A human relationship with your manager with mutual care is possible. The thing to understand is this: your manager is not the business. Unless you're working in a truly tiny company, they operate under their own set of constraints and will have to make decisions they're not really happy about. If that means firing you or low-balling your salary, then sure, you may not care much for that distinction in the hurt of the moment. And maybe they really are out to get you. But if you treat your manager like an antagonist, don't be surprised if they end up doing the same to you. (HR is a different story)

zaidf 4y ago
Could not agree more strongly!