4 ms·

As an America-born white hippie, though... I have a hard time seeing an argument like that and not equating it with attempts to suppress discussion of racial eq

by ajross 4y ago

As an America-born white hippie, though... I have a hard time seeing an argument like that and not equating it with attempts to suppress discussion of racial equality issues here at home[1]. The fact that you don't experience discrimination doesn't mean that no one does. And you should know if people do, and why. Nothing gets better if the skeletons stay in the closet, basically. It's no different for caste awareness than it is for teaching slavery and segregation. [1] Edit: and look what I did! "Here at home" clearly comes out making this seem like a "foreign" problem, but as you point out this is your home too! That's why we should all be hearing people speak out about it.

CWuestefeld 4y ago
But I think the same argument can be applied here in the USA, too. Your point about "security through obscurity" makes sense; I wouldn't attempt to conceal the history and the current problems. But the strategy here today seems to be trying to force people to own a given racial identity: at least some people are demanding that white people should stand up to publicly renounce their privilege, etc. And I'm afraid that this strategy of forcing people to self-identify as "white" rather than just "person" plants a seed in some minds that germinates into them sprouting into white nationalists and so forth.
- ajross 4y ago
  FWIW: I think you're conflating things. Teaching kids about slavery and segregation, and teaching older kids the enduring effects thereof (which are quantifiable!) isn't the same thing as forcing them to pick a racial identity or renounce their privilege or whatever, even if some of the same people want to do both. You can oppose the latter without denying the former. From my perspective on the other side of this divide, I see a lot of people making arguments like yours as a way of shutting down discussion about inequality entirely. That's exactly what you claim not to support, right?
  - tremon 4y ago
    which are quantifiable Are they really? I mean, I understand we can quantify generational or class-based inequality, but can we really quantify how much of that difference is attributable to slavery and/or segregation? Or is the implicit default to attribute 50% to slavery and attribute the other 50% to segregation?
    - machinerychorus 4y ago
      Yes, it's actually pretty simple. Non-white groups lag in almost all economic categories. The fed publishes a lot of this data[1], you can see for yourself. There are also lots of other things to look at, like rate of incarceration. The effect is real, and there are basically two explanations: Either it's due to systemic oppression, or its due to non-white racial groups being inherently inferior. Unless you're racist, only one of those explanations is valid. [1]: here's a link to household wealth by race, but they also have many other metrics. pick any one at random, they all show the same story https://www.stlouisfed.org/institute-for-economic-equity/the-real-state-of-family-wealth/racial-and-ethnic-household-wealth https://www.stlouisfed.org/institute-for-economic-equity/the...
      - endominus 4y ago
        >Non-white groups lag in almost all economic categories. Why are the data for Asian people not shown on those graphs? It only lists Black, Hispanic, and White. Is it because (at least according to the stats on Wikipedia[0], sourced from the US Census) they don't reinforce that narrative? In fact, according to that data, the median white income is ~$66K, which is surpassed by Ghanaians (~$69K), South Africans (~$98K), and Indians (~$150K). I can think of several reasons for that that have nothing to do with racial superiority or systemic oppression. Deciding what must be the cause of the problem ahead of time and claiming anyone who disagrees is a racist is both poor form and ineffective in actually solving problems of inequality. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...
        4y ago
noduerme 4y ago
It's always the white folks who claim this. The often false assumption that people who are non-white must be being discriminated against and that being colorblind is not enough, etc., is just a new version of the "white man's burden." It's neocolonialism dressed up as empathy. Most people want to be treated as just... people. Not handled with kid gloves or lumped into a racial group and having all kinds of assumptions made about them based on their skin color, regardless of whether you think those assumptions are supposed to help them. They don't help. The Portland white woke spiel goes like this: Latinos are non-white, therefore they're being discriminated against, this therefore shapes their lived experience, therefore they must support progressive economics and want to vote Democrat. Except people don't want to spend their life feeling discriminated against; they want to move up in society. They don't want to base their identity on your exoticized idea of their group suffering. So sure: Introduce new ways that people can feel like they've been discriminated against. That's the way it's done! More and more identity groups! Caste, why not? Hey, we can even celebrate it. This white guilt has done nothing but create more and more disharmony and disunity in a country that was founded on being a melting pot and where civil rights and equal rights were fought for, and won.
- vkou 4y ago
  This is a fascinating thesis, but it utterly fails to take into account that, well, maybe actual discrimination, as opposed to imagined discrimination still exists. > equal rights were fought for, and won. Some of them were won, to some extent, leaving plenty of gaps. We've reached civil equality about as well as the USSR reached 'true communism'.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ajross 4y ago
  > The often false assumption that people who are non-white must be being discriminated against and that being colorblind is not enough, etc., is just a new version of the "white man's burden." I dunno, man. I just think that, y'know, sometimes discrimination really does happen and I'd like to know when it does. That way I can try and fix it. Not everything is a cult. Most of us are trying to help.

by ajross 4y ago

CWuestefeld 4y ago

But I think the same argument can be applied here in the USA, too. Your point about "security through obscurity" makes sense; I wouldn't attempt to conceal the history and the current problems. But the strategy here today seems to be trying to force people to own a given racial identity: at least some people are demanding that white people should stand up to publicly renounce their privilege, etc. And I'm afraid that this strategy of forcing people to self-identify as "white" rather than just "person" plants a seed in some minds that germinates into them sprouting into white nationalists and so forth.

ajross 4y ago
FWIW: I think you're conflating things. Teaching kids about slavery and segregation, and teaching older kids the enduring effects thereof (which are quantifiable!) isn't the same thing as forcing them to pick a racial identity or renounce their privilege or whatever, even if some of the same people want to do both. You can oppose the latter without denying the former. From my perspective on the other side of this divide, I see a lot of people making arguments like yours as a way of shutting down discussion about inequality entirely. That's exactly what you claim not to support, right?
- tremon 4y ago
  which are quantifiable Are they really? I mean, I understand we can quantify generational or class-based inequality, but can we really quantify how much of that difference is attributable to slavery and/or segregation? Or is the implicit default to attribute 50% to slavery and attribute the other 50% to segregation?
  - machinerychorus 4y ago
    Yes, it's actually pretty simple. Non-white groups lag in almost all economic categories. The fed publishes a lot of this data[1], you can see for yourself. There are also lots of other things to look at, like rate of incarceration. The effect is real, and there are basically two explanations: Either it's due to systemic oppression, or its due to non-white racial groups being inherently inferior. Unless you're racist, only one of those explanations is valid. [1]: here's a link to household wealth by race, but they also have many other metrics. pick any one at random, they all show the same story https://www.stlouisfed.org/institute-for-economic-equity/the-real-state-of-family-wealth/racial-and-ethnic-household-wealth https://www.stlouisfed.org/institute-for-economic-equity/the...
    - endominus 4y ago
      >Non-white groups lag in almost all economic categories. Why are the data for Asian people not shown on those graphs? It only lists Black, Hispanic, and White. Is it because (at least according to the stats on Wikipedia[0], sourced from the US Census) they don't reinforce that narrative? In fact, according to that data, the median white income is ~$66K, which is surpassed by Ghanaians (~$69K), South Africans (~$98K), and Indians (~$150K). I can think of several reasons for that that have nothing to do with racial superiority or systemic oppression. Deciding what must be the cause of the problem ahead of time and claiming anyone who disagrees is a racist is both poor form and ineffective in actually solving problems of inequality. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...
      - 4y ago

noduerme 4y ago

It's always the white folks who claim this. The often false assumption that people who are non-white must be being discriminated against and that being colorblind is not enough, etc., is just a new version of the "white man's burden." It's neocolonialism dressed up as empathy. Most people want to be treated as just... people. Not handled with kid gloves or lumped into a racial group and having all kinds of assumptions made about them based on their skin color, regardless of whether you think those assumptions are supposed to help them. They don't help. The Portland white woke spiel goes like this: Latinos are non-white, therefore they're being discriminated against, this therefore shapes their lived experience, therefore they must support progressive economics and want to vote Democrat. Except people don't want to spend their life feeling discriminated against; they want to move up in society. They don't want to base their identity on your exoticized idea of their group suffering. So sure: Introduce new ways that people can feel like they've been discriminated against. That's the way it's done! More and more identity groups! Caste, why not? Hey, we can even celebrate it. This white guilt has done nothing but create more and more disharmony and disunity in a country that was founded on being a melting pot and where civil rights and equal rights were fought for, and won.

vkou 4y ago
This is a fascinating thesis, but it utterly fails to take into account that, well, maybe actual discrimination, as opposed to imagined discrimination still exists. > equal rights were fought for, and won. Some of them were won, to some extent, leaving plenty of gaps. We've reached civil equality about as well as the USSR reached 'true communism'.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ajross 4y ago
> The often false assumption that people who are non-white must be being discriminated against and that being colorblind is not enough, etc., is just a new version of the "white man's burden." I dunno, man. I just think that, y'know, sometimes discrimination really does happen and I'd like to know when it does. That way I can try and fix it. Not everything is a cult. Most of us are trying to help.