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I see that you are not willing to conduct a honest discussion. Only thing I wonder about is how is it possible that the rhetoric and vocabulary you are using i

I see that you are not willing to conduct a honest discussion. Only thing I wonder about is how is it possible that the rhetoric and vocabulary you are using is too damn similar to Russian trolls. I recommend you to meditate about it if you consider yourself an American. You are a prime example that shows that whataboutism is exactly what it is thought to be.

EGreg 4y ago
I asked you two direct questions, asked you to answer them, and you ignored them both times. Then you say that I am not willing to conduct an honest discussion. Please see the sibling comment below, and answer my two questions. I can assure you (and you can verify by my entire posting history) that I am interested ONLY in good-faith honest discussions. > Only thing I wonder about is how is it possible that the rhetoric and vocabulary you are using is too damn similar to Russian trolls. Actually, it is similar to Noam Chomsky and other antiwar intellectuals who have been decrying imperialism for decades. Do Russian trolls condemn Russia's invasion? Because I do. I simply put it in context, that it's one of many invasions and occupations by empires like USA and China. They all resulted in a lot of misery. But the solution is to prevent them from happening, and to push all politicians towards diplomacy. We must fix the system instead of hysterically talking about one example, not even the largest one at the current moment, of a country attacking another country and killing civilians, while ignoring all others. So now for the whataboutism. Just for context, in Ukraine, the UN figures say 4 thousand civilians died. In Yemen and Ethiopia, the figure is far higher, and for years no one in the White, Christian liberal west seems to know or can even name who is involved: https://www.rescue.org/article/crisis-yemen-protracted-conflict-pushes-yemenis-deeper-need https://www.rescue.org/article/crisis-yemen-protracted-confl... https://www.refugeesinternational.org/stop-tigray-famine https://www.refugeesinternational.org/stop-tigray-famine Do YOU care? Have you donated to the refugees even 1% of what you donated to weapons for Ukraine? Have you picked a side that's 100% wrong and will be sponsoring weapons for the other? Don't worry, USA has done that for you and has been sending weapons to Saudis for years: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/09/02/yemen-coalition-bus-bombing-apparent-war-crime https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/09/02/yemen-coalition-bus-bomb... Prolonging the war in Ukraine is irresponsible also because it can lead to widespread famine. One third of the food in Yemen comes from Ukraine, for instance. MILLIONS of people around the world have to pay for these armies to "have their fun", obviously I blame Putin for it but not ONLY Putin, while you blame ONLY Putin and have no plan for stopping the war, instead supporting the position that "we must keep fighting as long as it takes, so Putin slinks back in total defeat". Meanwhile you're perpetuating a situation causing millions of these people in much larger conflict zones to starve. Not that you said much about them this entire time (I know, I know, whataboutism). Regarding the war in Ukraine, I don't know about "Russian trolls" but if I started listing countries whose media and people feel similarly to me about USA and NATO's involvement, it might end up being over half the world. You just don't care about that part of the world. China, India, Pakistan are still doing business with Russia and resisting NATO pressure. The middle east, Saudis don't pick up the phone on Biden, and started selling oil for Chinese currency. Even Israel and Palestinians both refrained from criticizing Russia too much. Much of South America (who still harbor resentment to USA), including large countries like Brazil, refuse to take sides, and even some eastern European countries and Hungary's government are hesitant. Of course, unlike you, I am not quick to identify the population with the country's government, for that we need polls (see below). > I recommend you to meditate about it if you consider yourself an American. Yes! USA has one of the best protections for freedom of speech anywhere in the world. It is quintessentially American to be able to speak your mind. I may ask well ask you how come your rhetoric and vocabulary are so damn similar to US war hawks? Are you on John Bolton's and Hillary's payroll? Does being an American mean totally closing your eyes to what the rest of the world thinks: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-democracy-russia-china-global-poll https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-demo... I mean even the word "American" is so chauvinistic, United States isn't all of north and south America, large countries like Canada Mexico and Brazil are also "American". > You are a prime example that shows that whataboutism is exactly what it is thought to be. Good, because it's supposed to call out total hypocrisy and double standards. Were you willing to agree that US athletes should be banned from sporting events, and crippling sanctions would be put on the USA to stop the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, the destruction of Libya, or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Invasions_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Invasions_by_the_Unit... or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... Can we kick Saudi Arabia off the human rights council finally? Or China? They imprisoned huge numbers of Uyghurs, Falun Dafa and so on, in re-education camps. Some even allege that they mine them for organs. The same problem exists: we don't have enough video evidence from inside. And the UN will do nothing because it's an "internal matter", just as it is in Tibet, Hong Kong and soon in Taiwan. I say the international system needs to do a lot of work to prevent human rights violations. You say... Russian man bad.
- eveningcoffee 4y ago
  I also asked you something but you refused to consider it. I wonder if you also deny genocide Serbians committed, like Chomsky? I'm just curious. I think that very likely Chomsky is nothing more than a Russian shill, and considering how in harmony all of it resonates, I would give it high likelihood to be correct. It was also discussed here, perhaps you missed it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31457200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31457200 Did input from Chomsky help somehow or was the opposite true that it muddied the discussion and made reaching the solution actually much harder? This is why I started with comparison. To show that you can't just ask randomly: but what about? First most situations are not comparable and second, it really does not help. Even though you appear to be blind to humane examples, I will try again with one. Imagine you are in a foreign city, you have no money, you do knot know anybody, you have hunger. So you ask a person for help, you explain your situation and this person asks, but what about children in Africa? You see, whataboutism did not help you and it did not also help children in Africa. That is the whole point of whataboutism - direct the attention away from the actual problem that needs direct immediate action. So lets take one another example. There is Russian invasion in Ukraine, Russia is committing war crimes on large scale and it is most likely preparing for wide scale genocide. Ukraine needs immediate international assistance to counter the invasion, it needs humanitarian aid, financial aid and military aid and strong diplomatic support. Now instead of actually reacting to this real need, to actually end the invasion, you ask, but what about Yemen? Like asking about children in Africa, how does it help? It certainly does not help Ukraine and it for sure does not help Yemen. Because nobody cares about Yemen and now there is high likelihood that they do not also care about Ukraine anymore. The person who asked from hungry you about children in Africa did not want to help them, he just wanted to distract you to go away. I will write in sibling comment about Ukraine and Yemen in more detail.
- eveningcoffee 4y ago
  Yemen and Ukraine. Sending humanitarian aid to Yemen does not help, actually it has very high probability to prolong the struggle. Sending immediately military aid to Ukraine has high probability to end the conflict and avoid larger humanitarian catastrophe. It took me some time to figure out between who is the conflict in Yemen, and why, though involvement of Saudi-Arabia and Iran was a big give away. So it is indeed between Sunny and Shia Muslims. They all appear to be Arabs in large part, so it indeed is just difference in minor details of faith. But why? It appears that it is over control of natural resources. Both sides want to have full control and leave other side nothing. In fact it is just continuation of the previous Yemen civil war. The war was started by Shia Muslims. The conflict is 8 year old by now and it appears to be in some sort of stalemate. I have no idea if the diplomatic solution is possible at the moment. As it is civil war, neither side has in principle more right to win. Should we fear consequences of one side losing? I don't know, is there risk of ethnic cleansing that could follow? Should we fear consequences of one side winning? Perhaps. If Shias win, it would mean that they copy the same conflict elsewhere, for example in Iraq. I don't know. Most important part here in comparison with Ukraine is that these conflicts are not comparable and solutions to these conflicts will be completely different. One is civil war and another is full scale foreign invasion with the goal to end statehood of the victim. It is also very clear that if Ukraine would win, the conflict will be over. There would be no large scale humanitarian crisis because neighboring countries would manage to provide enough help to avoid it. There will be probably some amount of repressions against the losing side but these would be reasonable and in accordance to accepted civil practices. It is also very clear that if Russia would win, the conflict will just start because of very high likelihood of continuous insurgency. It is also clear that there would be large scale humanitarian crisis because Russia has already stated that it will use humanitarian aid as a way to punish Ukrainians for the resistance, it is also clear that there will be large wave of repressions resulting in end of life and end of freedom on large scale. It is also very clear that if Russia wins, it would repeat the conflict elsewhere. Most likely against NATO country. Based on the current information, Ukraine winning is highly favorable. Current practice has also surely demonstrated that there is at the moment no possible diplomatic solution because Russia is not accepting any except total surrender that is again not acceptable by Ukraine and is also not favorable for the overall situation. In conclusion, conflicts in Ukraine and Yemen are very different in origin and in possible solution. Comparing these two is meaningless and does not in any way help to find resolution to either one.

EGreg 4y ago

I asked you two direct questions, asked you to answer them, and you ignored them both times. Then you say that I am not willing to conduct an honest discussion. Please see the sibling comment below, and answer my two questions. I can assure you (and you can verify by my entire posting history) that I am interested ONLY in good-faith honest discussions. > Only thing I wonder about is how is it possible that the rhetoric and vocabulary you are using is too damn similar to Russian trolls. Actually, it is similar to Noam Chomsky and other antiwar intellectuals who have been decrying imperialism for decades. Do Russian trolls condemn Russia's invasion? Because I do. I simply put it in context, that it's one of many invasions and occupations by empires like USA and China. They all resulted in a lot of misery. But the solution is to prevent them from happening, and to push all politicians towards diplomacy. We must fix the system instead of hysterically talking about one example, not even the largest one at the current moment, of a country attacking another country and killing civilians, while ignoring all others. So now for the whataboutism. Just for context, in Ukraine, the UN figures say 4 thousand civilians died. In Yemen and Ethiopia, the figure is far higher, and for years no one in the White, Christian liberal west seems to know or can even name who is involved: https://www.rescue.org/article/crisis-yemen-protracted-conflict-pushes-yemenis-deeper-need https://www.rescue.org/article/crisis-yemen-protracted-confl... https://www.refugeesinternational.org/stop-tigray-famine https://www.refugeesinternational.org/stop-tigray-famine Do YOU care? Have you donated to the refugees even 1% of what you donated to weapons for Ukraine? Have you picked a side that's 100% wrong and will be sponsoring weapons for the other? Don't worry, USA has done that for you and has been sending weapons to Saudis for years: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/09/02/yemen-coalition-bus-bombing-apparent-war-crime https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/09/02/yemen-coalition-bus-bomb... Prolonging the war in Ukraine is irresponsible also because it can lead to widespread famine. One third of the food in Yemen comes from Ukraine, for instance. MILLIONS of people around the world have to pay for these armies to "have their fun", obviously I blame Putin for it but not ONLY Putin, while you blame ONLY Putin and have no plan for stopping the war, instead supporting the position that "we must keep fighting as long as it takes, so Putin slinks back in total defeat". Meanwhile you're perpetuating a situation causing millions of these people in much larger conflict zones to starve. Not that you said much about them this entire time (I know, I know, whataboutism). Regarding the war in Ukraine, I don't know about "Russian trolls" but if I started listing countries whose media and people feel similarly to me about USA and NATO's involvement, it might end up being over half the world. You just don't care about that part of the world. China, India, Pakistan are still doing business with Russia and resisting NATO pressure. The middle east, Saudis don't pick up the phone on Biden, and started selling oil for Chinese currency. Even Israel and Palestinians both refrained from criticizing Russia too much. Much of South America (who still harbor resentment to USA), including large countries like Brazil, refuse to take sides, and even some eastern European countries and Hungary's government are hesitant. Of course, unlike you, I am not quick to identify the population with the country's government, for that we need polls (see below). > I recommend you to meditate about it if you consider yourself an American. Yes! USA has one of the best protections for freedom of speech anywhere in the world. It is quintessentially American to be able to speak your mind. I may ask well ask you how come your rhetoric and vocabulary are so damn similar to US war hawks? Are you on John Bolton's and Hillary's payroll? Does being an American mean totally closing your eyes to what the rest of the world thinks: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-democracy-russia-china-global-poll https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-demo... I mean even the word "American" is so chauvinistic, United States isn't all of north and south America, large countries like Canada Mexico and Brazil are also "American". > You are a prime example that shows that whataboutism is exactly what it is thought to be. Good, because it's supposed to call out total hypocrisy and double standards. Were you willing to agree that US athletes should be banned from sporting events, and crippling sanctions would be put on the USA to stop the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, the destruction of Libya, or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Invasions_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Invasions_by_the_Unit... or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... Can we kick Saudi Arabia off the human rights council finally? Or China? They imprisoned huge numbers of Uyghurs, Falun Dafa and so on, in re-education camps. Some even allege that they mine them for organs. The same problem exists: we don't have enough video evidence from inside. And the UN will do nothing because it's an "internal matter", just as it is in Tibet, Hong Kong and soon in Taiwan. I say the international system needs to do a lot of work to prevent human rights violations. You say... Russian man bad.

eveningcoffee 4y ago
I also asked you something but you refused to consider it. I wonder if you also deny genocide Serbians committed, like Chomsky? I'm just curious. I think that very likely Chomsky is nothing more than a Russian shill, and considering how in harmony all of it resonates, I would give it high likelihood to be correct. It was also discussed here, perhaps you missed it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31457200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31457200 Did input from Chomsky help somehow or was the opposite true that it muddied the discussion and made reaching the solution actually much harder? This is why I started with comparison. To show that you can't just ask randomly: but what about? First most situations are not comparable and second, it really does not help. Even though you appear to be blind to humane examples, I will try again with one. Imagine you are in a foreign city, you have no money, you do knot know anybody, you have hunger. So you ask a person for help, you explain your situation and this person asks, but what about children in Africa? You see, whataboutism did not help you and it did not also help children in Africa. That is the whole point of whataboutism - direct the attention away from the actual problem that needs direct immediate action. So lets take one another example. There is Russian invasion in Ukraine, Russia is committing war crimes on large scale and it is most likely preparing for wide scale genocide. Ukraine needs immediate international assistance to counter the invasion, it needs humanitarian aid, financial aid and military aid and strong diplomatic support. Now instead of actually reacting to this real need, to actually end the invasion, you ask, but what about Yemen? Like asking about children in Africa, how does it help? It certainly does not help Ukraine and it for sure does not help Yemen. Because nobody cares about Yemen and now there is high likelihood that they do not also care about Ukraine anymore. The person who asked from hungry you about children in Africa did not want to help them, he just wanted to distract you to go away. I will write in sibling comment about Ukraine and Yemen in more detail.
eveningcoffee 4y ago
Yemen and Ukraine. Sending humanitarian aid to Yemen does not help, actually it has very high probability to prolong the struggle. Sending immediately military aid to Ukraine has high probability to end the conflict and avoid larger humanitarian catastrophe. It took me some time to figure out between who is the conflict in Yemen, and why, though involvement of Saudi-Arabia and Iran was a big give away. So it is indeed between Sunny and Shia Muslims. They all appear to be Arabs in large part, so it indeed is just difference in minor details of faith. But why? It appears that it is over control of natural resources. Both sides want to have full control and leave other side nothing. In fact it is just continuation of the previous Yemen civil war. The war was started by Shia Muslims. The conflict is 8 year old by now and it appears to be in some sort of stalemate. I have no idea if the diplomatic solution is possible at the moment. As it is civil war, neither side has in principle more right to win. Should we fear consequences of one side losing? I don't know, is there risk of ethnic cleansing that could follow? Should we fear consequences of one side winning? Perhaps. If Shias win, it would mean that they copy the same conflict elsewhere, for example in Iraq. I don't know. Most important part here in comparison with Ukraine is that these conflicts are not comparable and solutions to these conflicts will be completely different. One is civil war and another is full scale foreign invasion with the goal to end statehood of the victim. It is also very clear that if Ukraine would win, the conflict will be over. There would be no large scale humanitarian crisis because neighboring countries would manage to provide enough help to avoid it. There will be probably some amount of repressions against the losing side but these would be reasonable and in accordance to accepted civil practices. It is also very clear that if Russia would win, the conflict will just start because of very high likelihood of continuous insurgency. It is also clear that there would be large scale humanitarian crisis because Russia has already stated that it will use humanitarian aid as a way to punish Ukrainians for the resistance, it is also clear that there will be large wave of repressions resulting in end of life and end of freedom on large scale. It is also very clear that if Russia wins, it would repeat the conflict elsewhere. Most likely against NATO country. Based on the current information, Ukraine winning is highly favorable. Current practice has also surely demonstrated that there is at the moment no possible diplomatic solution because Russia is not accepting any except total surrender that is again not acceptable by Ukraine and is also not favorable for the overall situation. In conclusion, conflicts in Ukraine and Yemen are very different in origin and in possible solution. Comparing these two is meaningless and does not in any way help to find resolution to either one.