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What makes the "Product Manager" role tricky is every person and every organization has a wildly different sense of what they do. You argue that there's not en

What makes the "Product Manager" role tricky is every person and every organization has a wildly different sense of what they do. You argue that there's not enough room in a person's brain for Software Engineering and Product Management, but "Product Management" often includes planning, strategy, coordination, vision, culture, anything vaguely leadership, and general "adulting". To call all of that mushed together a "discipline" makes no sense. Skills like coordination and vision are just as orthogonal from each-other as software engineering. As a result the best PMs are often those who know what control to give up to make the role / team function better. I've even been on teams where engineers seem hesitant to organize fun events because it may be perceived as stepping on a PM's turf, which is absurd! I think teams and PMs would benefit from splitting up the role. I'd love to see the creation of roles like "Associate Producer" (as borrowed from the film industry) that have a primary task of keeping things running smoothly without a strong focus on creative or technical leadership.

QuercusMax 4y ago
Isn't that Associate Producer role something like a Program Manager (PgM) / Technical Program Manager (TPM)? That's been my experience at Google.
- danielmarkbruce 4y ago
  Good TPM is that and worth their weight in gold... That's the role which should be more common across industry. Being a PM without a TPM sucks.
klabb3 4y ago
Yeah. Our problem at $FAANG was that PMs were incentivized by the "footprint" they had on the product. Makes sense maybe when doing greenfield, or for a major revamp, but man did it fuck up existing long-term projects that were essentially in maintenance mode. You'd see PMs join, change direction, narrowly grabbing a promo and leaving only to be repeated again by the next guy. Each time, the product became more complicated and much less focused. Things like vision and strategy shouldn't factor into any performance review for at least 2 years, for long term projects. Until you know deeply (a) how everything works and (b) the cost of changing things, nobody should be allowed anywhere near those big buttons. The only ones who knew that were the senior engineers who had been around forever. And they're not liked by management, because they tend to be nay-sayers, and they often like how things are. But if you asked management if they were willing to break existing customers the answer at the end of the day was always no. Yet they all wanted new and shiny things, in denial of the feasibility and especially cost.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  I've never understood why Development Manager and Product Designer are supposed to be the same job. I've also never understood why product design so often seems to be sidetracked into pointless tinkering with minor changes - often unwelcome - while major issues remain unaddressed. In reality PM seems to be a stepping stone to more senior management, so products inevitably suffer from tinkering and drift. No one really owns the product - or if they do, it's not for long. They don't really care because they're heading elsewhere.
  - thombat 4y ago
    The perversity is that if they do care then they're less likely to be heading anywhere, since they won't be seen as a go-getter. The problem extends to the customers too: we all know that solid unexciting dependable quality is to be treasured, yet nothing but the pain of a dozen bad "upgrades" can conquer the lure of the shiny newness.
- kenjackson 4y ago
  I've seen there are two distinctly different types of PMs for greenfield and existing products. Product Managers for greenfield and technical program managers for existing products. Their focus tends to be different. Product managers focus on making sure that the product solves the customer problem. Technical program managers focus on ensuring things like quality and supportability are built into the product. Sounds like this might help solve the problem at FAANG.

QuercusMax 4y ago

Isn't that Associate Producer role something like a Program Manager (PgM) / Technical Program Manager (TPM)? That's been my experience at Google.

danielmarkbruce 4y ago
Good TPM is that and worth their weight in gold... That's the role which should be more common across industry. Being a PM without a TPM sucks.

klabb3 4y ago

Yeah. Our problem at $FAANG was that PMs were incentivized by the "footprint" they had on the product. Makes sense maybe when doing greenfield, or for a major revamp, but man did it fuck up existing long-term projects that were essentially in maintenance mode. You'd see PMs join, change direction, narrowly grabbing a promo and leaving only to be repeated again by the next guy. Each time, the product became more complicated and much less focused. Things like vision and strategy shouldn't factor into any performance review for at least 2 years, for long term projects. Until you know deeply (a) how everything works and (b) the cost of changing things, nobody should be allowed anywhere near those big buttons. The only ones who knew that were the senior engineers who had been around forever. And they're not liked by management, because they tend to be nay-sayers, and they often like how things are. But if you asked management if they were willing to break existing customers the answer at the end of the day was always no. Yet they all wanted new and shiny things, in denial of the feasibility and especially cost.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
I've never understood why Development Manager and Product Designer are supposed to be the same job. I've also never understood why product design so often seems to be sidetracked into pointless tinkering with minor changes - often unwelcome - while major issues remain unaddressed. In reality PM seems to be a stepping stone to more senior management, so products inevitably suffer from tinkering and drift. No one really owns the product - or if they do, it's not for long. They don't really care because they're heading elsewhere.
- thombat 4y ago
  The perversity is that if they do care then they're less likely to be heading anywhere, since they won't be seen as a go-getter. The problem extends to the customers too: we all know that solid unexciting dependable quality is to be treasured, yet nothing but the pain of a dozen bad "upgrades" can conquer the lure of the shiny newness.
kenjackson 4y ago
I've seen there are two distinctly different types of PMs for greenfield and existing products. Product Managers for greenfield and technical program managers for existing products. Their focus tends to be different. Product managers focus on making sure that the product solves the customer problem. Technical program managers focus on ensuring things like quality and supportability are built into the product. Sounds like this might help solve the problem at FAANG.