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Living in the US, and looking at how (for example) their second amendment has ruined their society, but it's considered heresy to countenance change to the holy

Living in the US, and looking at how (for example) their second amendment has ruined their society, but it's considered heresy to countenance change to the holy document, I really don't want the UK to go down that path. There are places with written constitutions that have turned out better than the US one, but if you look at parallels between the UK and other nations, the US is the most likely one for the UK to follow. That way lies ruin.

engineer_22 4y ago
The US Constitution has been regularly amended since the beginning. Your claim that it would be heresy falls flat here. 2nd amendment ruined society, exactly how? The US still enjoys the largest economy and military in the world respectively. Religious and personal freedoms are codified in law. What is in ruins?
- spacedcowboy 4y ago
  I didn't claim that amending the constitution was heresy. I claimed that removing the second amendment is heresy. And I stand by that. [edit: on re-reading, the above is not true. I meant to claim that removing the 2A was heresy. My bad] Look, this is just an opinion, but from the outside looking in, your society is frankly awful at looking after its people, and the everyone-gets-a-gun made sense a few hundred years ago with frontier justice, but certainly doesn't today. The gun culture doesn't create (as claimed) a "polite society", it creates a society based on fear, where everything is much more dangerous because guns are, at least potentially, involved. I've been stopped by the police twice in my lifetime for speeding - once when I was a kid just passed his test, once a decade or so ago driving up the 280 to SF Airport and running late. The one in the US was a far more fraught affair - I suddenly remembered advice to keep your hands visible, don't make any sudden moves, etc. etc. In contrast the UK one was a walk in the park. Got the ticket, the policeman even cracked a joke to reduce the tension, and the worst part was telling my mother (I was still driving on her insurance). That's an anecdote, not data, but it's a microcosm of any interaction with the police. Over here every tinpot town has military hardware and SWAT teams because the criminals might have guns, the police are poorly trained in general, SWAT teams included, and the interaction between police and policed is far more tense, controlling and authoritative as a result. Because of guns being so prolific, the Peelian principles of policing are pretty much impossible to apply, and so US police do their job with overwhelming force for the given situation and employ fear as a standard tactic... Every shopkeeper is more alert for guns; Another anecdote: I was being driven from McCarrean airport to a hotel in Vegas for a trade show before I started living here, and my cab driver pulled out in front of someone, who chased him, got alongside and pulled a gun (!!!). My cab driver pulled one right back at him (!!!!!!). They yelled at each other and went their different ways. Could have gone a lot differently. This sort of thing doesn't happen in civilized society. > The US still enjoys the largest economy and military in the world respectively. Religious and personal freedoms are codified in law Well, great ? It doesn't change how American society interacts. And the abuse of "religious freedoms" to oppress people is another huge problem in American society in general. I wouldn't go claiming that one, personally. To be clear, I didn't mean that the 2A was the only reason American society is ruined, but it's more along the lines of (with apologies to EI, this is from memory): "The gun doesn't kill people, people kill people" "Well, yes, but the gun helps, doesn't it? I mean, if I walked up behind someone and yelled BANG! they're not very likely to drop dead, are they ? They'd have to be pretty dodgy on the old ticker for that to kill them" In the same way, the 2A hasn't killed American society, but it helps. Feel free to disagree :) I don't really care about fake internet points, and I realize this isn't a popular opinion in America, but from the outside looking in - y'all are nuts.
  - mijkal 4y ago
    I'm American. And I agree with everything you've said.
  - mmcdermott 4y ago
    The Second Amendment isn't well represented, by either side of the political aisle. The original intent wasn't for frontier justice, recreational hunting or self-defense. The second amendment was a check on government power, no different than the checks and balances between different branches. An armed populace was always a potential risk, the idea was that freedom was worth that risk. The core societal question is do we still believe that? If one believes that it isn't, then the constitution should be amended to reflect the tradeoff between safety and security the populace is willing to accept. If one believes it is, then one must look for other ways to moderate risk and accept that any group that has power will sometimes abuse it.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    You claimed American society was in ruins. You have failed to support that claim.
jaywalk 4y ago
You live in the US, but refer to "their" society as if you're not a part of it. So if "their" society is in ruins, why do you choose to continue living there? Surely you can head off to any number of countries that would suit you much better, and allow you to be a part of their society.
- spacedcowboy 4y ago
  Ah, the old "if you don't like it, leave" advice. Well, in life, you might come across some situations where running away isn't really an option. I've got an (American) wife who likes it here, and a kid whose schooling I don't want to interrupt. Yes. If it were just me, I'd leave. I've made enough millions that I could live quite happily back in my home country, but, you know... Life. Not just your own opinion counts...
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    So then maybe "society is in ruins because people are allowed to own things I don't think they should be allowed to own" is a bit hyperbolic, yes?
    - spacedcowboy 4y ago
      shrug you have your opinion, am I not entitled to my own ? And since when did not liking something mean you weren't entitled to criticise it ? American society is screwed up, IMHO. A large part of that is due to the policy of fear used by authorities, due to guns, and another large part is due to the wide "independent" streak within the society - I put it in quotes because it's really just selfishness, and guns are the poster-child for that attitude. shrug Nothing I say can matter, I can't even vote, but it doesn't mean I don't have eyes to see.
exdsq 4y ago
Do you know how many countries have unwritten constitutions? Hint: it’s the same number of countries that will use the Metric system after Boris has his way. (Answer is 3, albeit they’re different sets apart from the UK)

engineer_22 4y ago

The US Constitution has been regularly amended since the beginning. Your claim that it would be heresy falls flat here. 2nd amendment ruined society, exactly how? The US still enjoys the largest economy and military in the world respectively. Religious and personal freedoms are codified in law. What is in ruins?

spacedcowboy 4y ago
I didn't claim that amending the constitution was heresy. I claimed that removing the second amendment is heresy. And I stand by that. [edit: on re-reading, the above is not true. I meant to claim that removing the 2A was heresy. My bad] Look, this is just an opinion, but from the outside looking in, your society is frankly awful at looking after its people, and the everyone-gets-a-gun made sense a few hundred years ago with frontier justice, but certainly doesn't today. The gun culture doesn't create (as claimed) a "polite society", it creates a society based on fear, where everything is much more dangerous because guns are, at least potentially, involved. I've been stopped by the police twice in my lifetime for speeding - once when I was a kid just passed his test, once a decade or so ago driving up the 280 to SF Airport and running late. The one in the US was a far more fraught affair - I suddenly remembered advice to keep your hands visible, don't make any sudden moves, etc. etc. In contrast the UK one was a walk in the park. Got the ticket, the policeman even cracked a joke to reduce the tension, and the worst part was telling my mother (I was still driving on her insurance). That's an anecdote, not data, but it's a microcosm of any interaction with the police. Over here every tinpot town has military hardware and SWAT teams because the criminals might have guns, the police are poorly trained in general, SWAT teams included, and the interaction between police and policed is far more tense, controlling and authoritative as a result. Because of guns being so prolific, the Peelian principles of policing are pretty much impossible to apply, and so US police do their job with overwhelming force for the given situation and employ fear as a standard tactic... Every shopkeeper is more alert for guns; Another anecdote: I was being driven from McCarrean airport to a hotel in Vegas for a trade show before I started living here, and my cab driver pulled out in front of someone, who chased him, got alongside and pulled a gun (!!!). My cab driver pulled one right back at him (!!!!!!). They yelled at each other and went their different ways. Could have gone a lot differently. This sort of thing doesn't happen in civilized society. > The US still enjoys the largest economy and military in the world respectively. Religious and personal freedoms are codified in law Well, great ? It doesn't change how American society interacts. And the abuse of "religious freedoms" to oppress people is another huge problem in American society in general. I wouldn't go claiming that one, personally. To be clear, I didn't mean that the 2A was the only reason American society is ruined, but it's more along the lines of (with apologies to EI, this is from memory): "The gun doesn't kill people, people kill people" "Well, yes, but the gun helps, doesn't it? I mean, if I walked up behind someone and yelled BANG! they're not very likely to drop dead, are they ? They'd have to be pretty dodgy on the old ticker for that to kill them" In the same way, the 2A hasn't killed American society, but it helps. Feel free to disagree :) I don't really care about fake internet points, and I realize this isn't a popular opinion in America, but from the outside looking in - y'all are nuts.
- mijkal 4y ago
  I'm American. And I agree with everything you've said.
- mmcdermott 4y ago
  The Second Amendment isn't well represented, by either side of the political aisle. The original intent wasn't for frontier justice, recreational hunting or self-defense. The second amendment was a check on government power, no different than the checks and balances between different branches. An armed populace was always a potential risk, the idea was that freedom was worth that risk. The core societal question is do we still believe that? If one believes that it isn't, then the constitution should be amended to reflect the tradeoff between safety and security the populace is willing to accept. If one believes it is, then one must look for other ways to moderate risk and accept that any group that has power will sometimes abuse it.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  You claimed American society was in ruins. You have failed to support that claim.

jaywalk 4y ago

You live in the US, but refer to "their" society as if you're not a part of it. So if "their" society is in ruins, why do you choose to continue living there? Surely you can head off to any number of countries that would suit you much better, and allow you to be a part of their society.

spacedcowboy 4y ago
Ah, the old "if you don't like it, leave" advice. Well, in life, you might come across some situations where running away isn't really an option. I've got an (American) wife who likes it here, and a kid whose schooling I don't want to interrupt. Yes. If it were just me, I'd leave. I've made enough millions that I could live quite happily back in my home country, but, you know... Life. Not just your own opinion counts...
- jaywalk 4y ago
  So then maybe "society is in ruins because people are allowed to own things I don't think they should be allowed to own" is a bit hyperbolic, yes?
  - spacedcowboy 4y ago
    shrug you have your opinion, am I not entitled to my own ? And since when did not liking something mean you weren't entitled to criticise it ? American society is screwed up, IMHO. A large part of that is due to the policy of fear used by authorities, due to guns, and another large part is due to the wide "independent" streak within the society - I put it in quotes because it's really just selfishness, and guns are the poster-child for that attitude. shrug Nothing I say can matter, I can't even vote, but it doesn't mean I don't have eyes to see.

exdsq 4y ago

Do you know how many countries have unwritten constitutions? Hint: it’s the same number of countries that will use the Metric system after Boris has his way. (Answer is 3, albeit they’re different sets apart from the UK)