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To be honest ... based on what you're saying I don't think you've really been. > There are a whole lot of other things besides what you list that could land yo

To be honest ... based on what you're saying I don't think you've really been. > There are a whole lot of other things besides what you list that could land you in jail. Incorrect. The jail population is 99% in those categories. > and lots of good people who didn't hurt anyone are in jail Also incorrect. Although, there are a lot of mentally unstable folks there, who could be considered to be a bit more innocent than the others.

skinnymuch 4y ago
Okay buddy. I’m sure all the people In prison, not even jail, for weed related non violent issues are somehow hurting people. Your toxic world view is a neoliberals elitist status quo wet dream. Nothing more.
- daenz 4y ago
  Only 92 people were sentenced for marijuana possession in the federal system in 2017, out of a total of nearly 20,000 drug convictions. That's about 0.5% 0. https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/annual-reports-and-sourcebooks/2017/Table33.pdf https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-pu...
  - rascul 4y ago
    Should be much higher for the states. I can't find numbers for that, though, only drugs in general.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    Okay? That’s federal. Why is that relevant? When you get arrested for marijuana randomly on the street in a normal state, what are the chances it’s going federal?
- i_like_apis 4y ago
  Incarceration is mostly for violence and theft. Lots of stolen cars, lots of assaults. Quite a lot of murders. I didn't know anyone who was there for just drugs, except a few who were dealing hard drugs. (And who were coincidentally also violent thieves) If you want to understand the jail population, watch the show "lockup raw". It would give you a better picture of who is being discussed. Though it defies logic, there are a lot of people like yourself who seem to think that prisons are filled with a bunch of victims, who are just there for drug offenses. It's not true by a long shot. https://static.prisonpolicy.org/scans/whos_in_prison_for_marij.pdf https://static.prisonpolicy.org/scans/whos_in_prison_for_mar...
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    Linking to a conservative think tanks report is pretty funny. It isn’t even trying to hide its bias from the get go. It knows it audience. People who have already been instilled to vote against their self interest and who want to oppress others. I would not only link to a leftist think tank. Besides that being rarer than the propoganda of the right. It’s insulting to myself most of all (the fact I would let myself get duped by propaganda this easily) and to the people i am talking to, to do that. Also, watching a tv show? That’s the worst way to understand politics. While being the best way for basic propaganda to work on a person. Life isn’t a joke where tv shows are what should be referenced.
    - i_like_apis 4y ago
      > Linking to a conservative think tanks report is pretty funny. It isn’t even trying to hide its bias from the get go. It knows it audience. The statistics were well-framed and accurate. It also has a nice discussion about how the statistics can be spun in different political directions, which is uncommonly honest for any side. > People who have already been instilled to vote against their self interest and who want to oppress others This narrative of law enforcement oppressing others is probably something we would hopefully agree to disagree on regarding the particulars of who, and how wide-spread that is. It definitely happens. I would say that my first-hand experience mixing with something like a thousand inmates (the number is true) is that they were very ethnically diverse. About 1/3 White, 1/3 Black, 1/3 Hispanic. Roughly. More Black and Hispanic and less White I guess, but there were plenty of Whites. Virtually 0 Asian. However nearly everyone was very lower class. More important is that everyone who I knew of ... deserved to be there. They were mostly burglars, robbers, car thieves (way more high-speed chases than you would expect). Many were there for some type of Assault. Many multi-charge cases. Plenty of murderers, and a lot more rapists than you would expect. Very very few were there for only drugs, and honestly, they were released quickly into treatment programs. Other than that there were hard-drug dealers facing more major cases. They also tended to have a long case history involving the crimes above. Mixed with their more serious crimes, drug abuse was rampant, both in their outside lives and inside the jail. The law in the jurisdiction (I won't name it for privacy) doesn't care about marijuana. It was mainly heroine and meth. Those were even inside the jail in small quantities, leading to fights and even an in-jail murder over its control. However, nearly all of the drug addicts were eligible for reduced sentencing and "programs". In this jurisdiction they really bend over backwards for addicts. People would be in and out for serious violent cases and receive "programs" (outside treatment) and reduced sentences because they were mentally impaired from addiction. One guy in particular I knew, was a meth + heroine addict who had been in and out on "programs" for many years for all sorts of serious crimes, had lately killed a cop with his vehicle while fleeing. The drug defense was such a great way for people to get off that many would help each other concoct their defenses about how they were under the influence for their crimes. Another guy in particular came up with "bath salts" defense for a violent crime while I was there, and he was in fact released for it, instead of facing pretty serious time. They were going to even let him even go to a different state to care-take his for his son. However, he was back in for another case within a month. As for oppression, I understand that BLM has some valid complaints, for instance. And I certainly met a lot of cops who were nasty, violent, cruel people who didn't live up to the profession. It attracts some really bad people. I look at cops totally differently now. I would also say that parole and probation is very harsh and that people who have to endure it are "oppressed" in many ways, and often even financially exploited by law enforcement. These people have very little chance of crawling up out of the lower class after being in the system. Many end up on the streets. But their own addictions and criminal culture are a major factor. My point was not so much about oppression, which certainly occurs, but that from my first-hand observation, the vast majority of the arrest population is genuinely guilty of what they were arrested for (and often also of a lot additional crime they weren't arrested for), and is quite a lot more criminal and dangerous to society than 90% of liberals assume (and I am a liberal). People who don't know any better often think of jails and prisons as teeming with "victims of the system". But trust me, the vast majority are real low-lifes. They are a serious danger to you, yours, and your stuff. They should absolutely be separated from the rest of society, for both punishment and public safety. > Also, watching a tv show? That’s the worst way to understand politics. I see you assumed that it's a drama or staged reality TV. No, it's closer to a serialized documentary. I am telling you as someone who has both spent 2 years in jail and seen this show ... that it is an accurate, gonzo-type view into what jail is. It's not political. One could definitely use it to understand the politics of jail however, internal and external. It's a little sensationalized for TV consumption, but, it's also pretty close to what I could see being "source material"; It wouldn't surprise me if pieces of it are a supplemental part of any Criminology curricula. I'm not trying to be rude here, but this is a situation where you don't know something (what jail is like inside, or anything about this "show"), and you are talking to someone with that knowledge. In other words, you would stand to learn something. Now I doubt you're really interested, but since I'm typing, I'll say that the "show" is candid footage of the daily lives of real inmates. It also features several "plant" inmates who are not criminals, but who are fully immersed with real criminals. The real inmates are only partially aware of being recorded, and are usually not conscientious of it. It's a documentary of what jail is like, and shows the live population in a real jail; Who they are, how they talk, think, and act. I'm surprised it was even legal, frankly. It is pretty exploitative, since in jail you are technically still innocent (not yet convicted). However, I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that again, the vast majority of the inmates are in fact guilty of the crime they are accused of, and something like 95% of them have been committing serious crimes their entire life. I sense you may possibly have a "political" disagreement with this statement (apologies if not), but I assure you it is true. The show is actually amazing because jail is a very dangerous place where you can absolutely find yourself in violent, possibly even deadly situations. While the "plants" were monitored closely on CCTV, they are very certainly in physically danger. (It's worth mentioning that CCTV is common in most jails/prisons; it wasn't just for the show). While personally in jail, I was involved in numerous fights, and witnessed countless others, two of which were particularly brutal and involved fractured skulls, also a few stabbings, several large group melees, and a suicide. A murder also happened in a pod I was in, though I wasn't anywhere near it. Jailers are also sometimes very violent and provocative. There were at least a few shivs around in any given pod. It sounds a bit extreme in retrospect, but I'm not exaggerating anything. > While being the best way for basic propaganda to work on a person. Who said anything about propaganda? There isn't really any active political angle to it (except perhaps the Sheriff's funding / election). It definitely shows the Draconian threat of "crime doesn't pay" by showing the inside of the admittedly quite ugly industry, but I don't personally think that's more propagandizing than simply educational in a net-positive sense for our particular society. It is a little sickening that a show like that is a form of entertainment for some people to watch. I can understand the fascination with it, but I personally didn't even watch a whole lot of it because it hits too close to home. Also, please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that I am propagandized in some way, or lack the critical thinking to discern television propaganda. We're both in a high functioning career. Presumably we're both smart people, no? > Life isn’t a joke where tv shows are what should be referenced. Well, think about it ... I'm obviously speaking from a position of real life experience. There aren't many good "jokes" here. I'll try to sidestep the offense I could take at the term "joke" in response to someone mentioning a serious topic and "life" experience, but that's difficult. Basically, you heard someone with some rare domain knowledge say "hey - check this thing out, it's actually pretty realistic". Even without actually looking at that thing, if you can't figure out that that person is probably correct about what they say ... I'd point out what that makes you, but this is HN and I don't intend to flame. You should figure it out though. I don't think you'll even read any of this, typing it is just therapeutic I guess. But, since you bothered me, I'll tell you that I don't like your demeanor or arrogance. Arguably it's petty, but for the sake of keeping HN a nice place I think I'll check your comments every now and then ... and if I see you calling folks names like "boot licker" again, or posting non-substantive stuff (which seems likely?) I'll happily flag it! Maybe the thought of dang would force you to become a better, or perhaps less frequent poster. Your profile indicates a bright person, and I assume you are. Heads up - what you're saying isn't matching.
rascul 4y ago
Most people are incarcerated for the reasons you list. [0] That doesn't necessarily make them a scumbag or a bad person in my mind, without knowing more about the situation. There are plenty of examples where it's not so clear cut, here are a few: Supposedly over 90% of convictions are from plea bargains. We'll never know how many of those people were actually innocent. CeCe McDonald may or may not be one example. [1] Anthony Gammons, Jr. may have acted in self defense for him and his child, but he wasn't legally allowed to own a firearm so he was convicted of murder. [2] Teenager gets 10 years for consensual sex. [3] Kalief Browder in jail for three years without a trial. [4] Alexander Torres wrongfully convicted for murder for 20 years. [5] When I was in jail, the few people I talked to, were in there for cannabis possession (as was I), driving without a license, and missing a jury summons. None of that necessarily makes them bad people in my mind. Maybe they are, but it would be for other reasons I'm not aware of. [0] https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p19.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p19.pdf [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CeCe_McDonald https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CeCe_McDonald [2] https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2020/sep/15/indiana-supreme-court-must-be-immediate-causal-connection-between-confrontation-and-other-crime-defendant-negate-self-defense/ https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2020/sep/15/indiana-s... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v._State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v._State [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder [5] https://www.aol.com/news/20-years-prison-man-found-204259158.html https://www.aol.com/news/20-years-prison-man-found-204259158...

skinnymuch 4y ago

Okay buddy. I’m sure all the people In prison, not even jail, for weed related non violent issues are somehow hurting people. Your toxic world view is a neoliberals elitist status quo wet dream. Nothing more.

daenz 4y ago
Only 92 people were sentenced for marijuana possession in the federal system in 2017, out of a total of nearly 20,000 drug convictions. That's about 0.5% 0. https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/annual-reports-and-sourcebooks/2017/Table33.pdf https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-pu...
- rascul 4y ago
  Should be much higher for the states. I can't find numbers for that, though, only drugs in general.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Okay? That’s federal. Why is that relevant? When you get arrested for marijuana randomly on the street in a normal state, what are the chances it’s going federal?
i_like_apis 4y ago
Incarceration is mostly for violence and theft. Lots of stolen cars, lots of assaults. Quite a lot of murders. I didn't know anyone who was there for just drugs, except a few who were dealing hard drugs. (And who were coincidentally also violent thieves) If you want to understand the jail population, watch the show "lockup raw". It would give you a better picture of who is being discussed. Though it defies logic, there are a lot of people like yourself who seem to think that prisons are filled with a bunch of victims, who are just there for drug offenses. It's not true by a long shot. https://static.prisonpolicy.org/scans/whos_in_prison_for_marij.pdf https://static.prisonpolicy.org/scans/whos_in_prison_for_mar...
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Linking to a conservative think tanks report is pretty funny. It isn’t even trying to hide its bias from the get go. It knows it audience. People who have already been instilled to vote against their self interest and who want to oppress others. I would not only link to a leftist think tank. Besides that being rarer than the propoganda of the right. It’s insulting to myself most of all (the fact I would let myself get duped by propaganda this easily) and to the people i am talking to, to do that. Also, watching a tv show? That’s the worst way to understand politics. While being the best way for basic propaganda to work on a person. Life isn’t a joke where tv shows are what should be referenced.
  - i_like_apis 4y ago
    > Linking to a conservative think tanks report is pretty funny. It isn’t even trying to hide its bias from the get go. It knows it audience. The statistics were well-framed and accurate. It also has a nice discussion about how the statistics can be spun in different political directions, which is uncommonly honest for any side. > People who have already been instilled to vote against their self interest and who want to oppress others This narrative of law enforcement oppressing others is probably something we would hopefully agree to disagree on regarding the particulars of who, and how wide-spread that is. It definitely happens. I would say that my first-hand experience mixing with something like a thousand inmates (the number is true) is that they were very ethnically diverse. About 1/3 White, 1/3 Black, 1/3 Hispanic. Roughly. More Black and Hispanic and less White I guess, but there were plenty of Whites. Virtually 0 Asian. However nearly everyone was very lower class. More important is that everyone who I knew of ... deserved to be there. They were mostly burglars, robbers, car thieves (way more high-speed chases than you would expect). Many were there for some type of Assault. Many multi-charge cases. Plenty of murderers, and a lot more rapists than you would expect. Very very few were there for only drugs, and honestly, they were released quickly into treatment programs. Other than that there were hard-drug dealers facing more major cases. They also tended to have a long case history involving the crimes above. Mixed with their more serious crimes, drug abuse was rampant, both in their outside lives and inside the jail. The law in the jurisdiction (I won't name it for privacy) doesn't care about marijuana. It was mainly heroine and meth. Those were even inside the jail in small quantities, leading to fights and even an in-jail murder over its control. However, nearly all of the drug addicts were eligible for reduced sentencing and "programs". In this jurisdiction they really bend over backwards for addicts. People would be in and out for serious violent cases and receive "programs" (outside treatment) and reduced sentences because they were mentally impaired from addiction. One guy in particular I knew, was a meth + heroine addict who had been in and out on "programs" for many years for all sorts of serious crimes, had lately killed a cop with his vehicle while fleeing. The drug defense was such a great way for people to get off that many would help each other concoct their defenses about how they were under the influence for their crimes. Another guy in particular came up with "bath salts" defense for a violent crime while I was there, and he was in fact released for it, instead of facing pretty serious time. They were going to even let him even go to a different state to care-take his for his son. However, he was back in for another case within a month. As for oppression, I understand that BLM has some valid complaints, for instance. And I certainly met a lot of cops who were nasty, violent, cruel people who didn't live up to the profession. It attracts some really bad people. I look at cops totally differently now. I would also say that parole and probation is very harsh and that people who have to endure it are "oppressed" in many ways, and often even financially exploited by law enforcement. These people have very little chance of crawling up out of the lower class after being in the system. Many end up on the streets. But their own addictions and criminal culture are a major factor. My point was not so much about oppression, which certainly occurs, but that from my first-hand observation, the vast majority of the arrest population is genuinely guilty of what they were arrested for (and often also of a lot additional crime they weren't arrested for), and is quite a lot more criminal and dangerous to society than 90% of liberals assume (and I am a liberal). People who don't know any better often think of jails and prisons as teeming with "victims of the system". But trust me, the vast majority are real low-lifes. They are a serious danger to you, yours, and your stuff. They should absolutely be separated from the rest of society, for both punishment and public safety. > Also, watching a tv show? That’s the worst way to understand politics. I see you assumed that it's a drama or staged reality TV. No, it's closer to a serialized documentary. I am telling you as someone who has both spent 2 years in jail and seen this show ... that it is an accurate, gonzo-type view into what jail is. It's not political. One could definitely use it to understand the politics of jail however, internal and external. It's a little sensationalized for TV consumption, but, it's also pretty close to what I could see being "source material"; It wouldn't surprise me if pieces of it are a supplemental part of any Criminology curricula. I'm not trying to be rude here, but this is a situation where you don't know something (what jail is like inside, or anything about this "show"), and you are talking to someone with that knowledge. In other words, you would stand to learn something. Now I doubt you're really interested, but since I'm typing, I'll say that the "show" is candid footage of the daily lives of real inmates. It also features several "plant" inmates who are not criminals, but who are fully immersed with real criminals. The real inmates are only partially aware of being recorded, and are usually not conscientious of it. It's a documentary of what jail is like, and shows the live population in a real jail; Who they are, how they talk, think, and act. I'm surprised it was even legal, frankly. It is pretty exploitative, since in jail you are technically still innocent (not yet convicted). However, I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that again, the vast majority of the inmates are in fact guilty of the crime they are accused of, and something like 95% of them have been committing serious crimes their entire life. I sense you may possibly have a "political" disagreement with this statement (apologies if not), but I assure you it is true. The show is actually amazing because jail is a very dangerous place where you can absolutely find yourself in violent, possibly even deadly situations. While the "plants" were monitored closely on CCTV, they are very certainly in physically danger. (It's worth mentioning that CCTV is common in most jails/prisons; it wasn't just for the show). While personally in jail, I was involved in numerous fights, and witnessed countless others, two of which were particularly brutal and involved fractured skulls, also a few stabbings, several large group melees, and a suicide. A murder also happened in a pod I was in, though I wasn't anywhere near it. Jailers are also sometimes very violent and provocative. There were at least a few shivs around in any given pod. It sounds a bit extreme in retrospect, but I'm not exaggerating anything. > While being the best way for basic propaganda to work on a person. Who said anything about propaganda? There isn't really any active political angle to it (except perhaps the Sheriff's funding / election). It definitely shows the Draconian threat of "crime doesn't pay" by showing the inside of the admittedly quite ugly industry, but I don't personally think that's more propagandizing than simply educational in a net-positive sense for our particular society. It is a little sickening that a show like that is a form of entertainment for some people to watch. I can understand the fascination with it, but I personally didn't even watch a whole lot of it because it hits too close to home. Also, please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that I am propagandized in some way, or lack the critical thinking to discern television propaganda. We're both in a high functioning career. Presumably we're both smart people, no? > Life isn’t a joke where tv shows are what should be referenced. Well, think about it ... I'm obviously speaking from a position of real life experience. There aren't many good "jokes" here. I'll try to sidestep the offense I could take at the term "joke" in response to someone mentioning a serious topic and "life" experience, but that's difficult. Basically, you heard someone with some rare domain knowledge say "hey - check this thing out, it's actually pretty realistic". Even without actually looking at that thing, if you can't figure out that that person is probably correct about what they say ... I'd point out what that makes you, but this is HN and I don't intend to flame. You should figure it out though. I don't think you'll even read any of this, typing it is just therapeutic I guess. But, since you bothered me, I'll tell you that I don't like your demeanor or arrogance. Arguably it's petty, but for the sake of keeping HN a nice place I think I'll check your comments every now and then ... and if I see you calling folks names like "boot licker" again, or posting non-substantive stuff (which seems likely?) I'll happily flag it! Maybe the thought of dang would force you to become a better, or perhaps less frequent poster. Your profile indicates a bright person, and I assume you are. Heads up - what you're saying isn't matching.

rascul 4y ago

Most people are incarcerated for the reasons you list. [0] That doesn't necessarily make them a scumbag or a bad person in my mind, without knowing more about the situation. There are plenty of examples where it's not so clear cut, here are a few: Supposedly over 90% of convictions are from plea bargains. We'll never know how many of those people were actually innocent. CeCe McDonald may or may not be one example. [1] Anthony Gammons, Jr. may have acted in self defense for him and his child, but he wasn't legally allowed to own a firearm so he was convicted of murder. [2] Teenager gets 10 years for consensual sex. [3] Kalief Browder in jail for three years without a trial. [4] Alexander Torres wrongfully convicted for murder for 20 years. [5] When I was in jail, the few people I talked to, were in there for cannabis possession (as was I), driving without a license, and missing a jury summons. None of that necessarily makes them bad people in my mind. Maybe they are, but it would be for other reasons I'm not aware of. [0] https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p19.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p19.pdf [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CeCe_McDonald https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CeCe_McDonald [2] https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2020/sep/15/indiana-supreme-court-must-be-immediate-causal-connection-between-confrontation-and-other-crime-defendant-negate-self-defense/ https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2020/sep/15/indiana-s... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v._State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v._State [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder [5] https://www.aol.com/news/20-years-prison-man-found-204259158.html https://www.aol.com/news/20-years-prison-man-found-204259158...