6 ms·

I've consulted with several hundred live streamers, and none of what you're saying is reflective of their experiences. It is outrageously false and disparaging

by bryans 4y ago

I've consulted with several hundred live streamers, and none of what you're saying is reflective of their experiences. It is outrageously false and disparaging to claim that the vast majority (or even a significant portion) of large contributors are somehow dysfunctional and that content creators are exploiting them. Some people build cars for fun and spend their disposable income on that experience. Other people enjoy online content and spend their disposable income ensuring that content keeps getting made, or can be made even better. To declare an entire populations' preferred hobby as "dysfunctional" is plainly inflammatory and entirely inappropriate. > The companies pushing this have all the data and know exactly what's going on, but market to this demographic anyway. "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo. Patreon suggests a higher tier of $30. Those are not "ruin mom's credit" or "dump your life savings" prices, so it's disingenuous (at best) to suggest that something nefarious and exploitative is happening in regards to platforms' marketing efforts.

mjr00 4y ago
> "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo. Patreon suggests a higher tier of $30. Those are not "ruin mom's credit" or "dump your life savings" prices, so it's disingenuous (at best) to suggest that something nefarious and exploitative is happening in regards to platforms' marketing efforts. You're ignoring superchats and tips which is where most of the money comes from. Watch any fairly popular livestream, especially during the "just chatting" style periods, and you'll see $500, $1000 or higher superchats getting dumped in every few minutes. I mainly watch VTubers (never paid one money, for the record...) and the so-called "Girlfriend Experience" (or Boyfriend Experience, to a much lesser extent) is a real thing. Look at what happened to Uruha Rushia -- she accidentally leaked that she was dating someone and that caused her entire contract to get terminated.[0] Her "GFE" style made her the top Hololive earner in 2021, making $1.6 million from superchats alone.[1] [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/t06ryl/what_is_going_on_with_uruha_rushias_termination/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/t06ryl/what_i... [1] https://animecorner.me/hololive-vtubers-dominate-top-10-list-of-most-super-chats-received https://animecorner.me/hololive-vtubers-dominate-top-10-list...
- bryans 4y ago
  > You're ignoring superchats and tips which is where most of the money comes from. Tips represent less than 40% of revenue for nearly every type of content creator, so let's not exaggerate things. Super Chats are also limited to $500, so you're exaggerating the amounts you've seen. More importantly, you're conflating the original comment's generalization about how "the vast majority" of all highly-supportive fans have "unhealthy obsessions and are trying to have a girlfriend experience." Whereas what you're discussing is a corporate content farm[1] of exactly 61 brands, most of which are specifically designed to create a "girlfriend experience" in order to intentionally develop obsessions. That is an extremely specific situation which is not representative for >99% of content creators. [1] https://virtualyoutuber.fandom.com/wiki/Hololive https://virtualyoutuber.fandom.com/wiki/Hololive
  - mjr00 4y ago
    Hololive is just one example within a specific niche (and even within VTubers it's not the only one -- Nijisanji is pretty large as well now). Are you really telling me that people like Amouranth, Valkyrae, and Pokimane aren't aware of the girlfriend experience? That the whole hot tub streaming drama that led to the creation of an entire new Twitch category wasn't extremely exploitative of lonely, addicted men? Unhealthy parasocial relationships are an extremely lucrative revenue stream for content creators, just like whales with gacha games. Platforms do nothing to discourage this and in fact even encourage it.
    - bryans 4y ago
      Again, you're exaggerating everything. There are literally dozens of hot tubbers among many tens of millions of creators. You're purely discussing extreme niches which, even when combined, don't represent a significant portion of the overall market. So, I'll reiterate that making a declaration of "the vast majority of super fans being dysfunctional and exploited" is outrageously false and disparaging, not to mention being based on no actual data or working knowledge.
      - 4y ago
zamadatix 4y ago
> "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo. Twitch has a "Gift 100 subs $499" button right in the gift UI. If you haven't noticed that with the several hundred live streamers you've consulted with then it seems by definition the streamers you interact with do not have the Super Fans being discussed yet such fans are common enough for Twitch to make UI for it.
- bryans 4y ago
  Making an option available isn't the same as nefarious marketing and intentional exploitation, which is the entirely false claim being made by the OC. You're also acting incredibly inflammatory by suggesting that I am "ignorant of functionality" and "couldn't possibly work with streamers at that level." Unfortunately for your claim, I've consulted with several of Twitch's top 100 music streamers and have years of direct experience with every type of fan, super and otherwise. The OC's claims are nonsense, and your pedantic nitpicking isn't appropriate or applicable.
  - zamadatix 4y ago
    Please don't put quotation marks around words and claims which were not said. The quote was "If you haven't noticed that with the several hundred live streamers you've consulted with then it seems by definition the streamers you interact with do not have the Super Fans" and this does not contain either of those quotes or claims you're disparaging as they were never said. Not working with folks that try to get this type of viewer to press this button multiple times per months is a fantastic thing not something to get inflamed about. At the same time it doesn't mean these types of streamers and fans don't exist just because you don't work with them and clearly they do exist or Twitch wouldn't have bothered to make all of these types of options and fancy effects and the aforementioned bad example streams wouldn't have them triggered constantly. I don't see this as a nit, the claim in question was: > "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo Which is central to the arguments and the error core not inconsequential. Companies like Twitch have multiple high-cost options like the aforementioned $499 in one click gift button and the larger the cost for the option chosen the fancier/louder the button and after effects look. If you work with several of Twitches top streamers that's fantastic and it should be easy to verify there are many accounts spending orders of magnitude more than $25/month, super fans are the main folks being marketed to with these options and they make up the majority of their use. Regarding the rest of the GP's claims when it comes to your response: > Some people build cars for fun and spend their disposable income on that experience. Other people enjoy online content and spend their disposable income ensuring that content keeps getting made, or can be made even better. To declare an entire populations' preferred hobby as "dysfunctional" is plainly inflammatory and entirely inappropriate. Super Fans donate hundreds of dollars per action to streamers who are sometimes making millions per year. This is not the "I'm tier 3 for my favorite streamer so they can stay full time" crowd it's the "I'm top bit donator/sub gifter on a top channel" crowd. I consider myself part of the former hobby/support group but I can't see any way to construe the latter group as part of the same hobby either. I'm open to hearing ways that whale segment could be though if you'd be willing to expound

by bryans 4y ago

mjr00 4y ago

> "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo. Patreon suggests a higher tier of $30. Those are not "ruin mom's credit" or "dump your life savings" prices, so it's disingenuous (at best) to suggest that something nefarious and exploitative is happening in regards to platforms' marketing efforts. You're ignoring superchats and tips which is where most of the money comes from. Watch any fairly popular livestream, especially during the "just chatting" style periods, and you'll see $500, $1000 or higher superchats getting dumped in every few minutes. I mainly watch VTubers (never paid one money, for the record...) and the so-called "Girlfriend Experience" (or Boyfriend Experience, to a much lesser extent) is a real thing. Look at what happened to Uruha Rushia -- she accidentally leaked that she was dating someone and that caused her entire contract to get terminated.[0] Her "GFE" style made her the top Hololive earner in 2021, making $1.6 million from superchats alone.[1] [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/t06ryl/what_is_going_on_with_uruha_rushias_termination/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/t06ryl/what_i... [1] https://animecorner.me/hololive-vtubers-dominate-top-10-list-of-most-super-chats-received https://animecorner.me/hololive-vtubers-dominate-top-10-list...

bryans 4y ago
> You're ignoring superchats and tips which is where most of the money comes from. Tips represent less than 40% of revenue for nearly every type of content creator, so let's not exaggerate things. Super Chats are also limited to $500, so you're exaggerating the amounts you've seen. More importantly, you're conflating the original comment's generalization about how "the vast majority" of all highly-supportive fans have "unhealthy obsessions and are trying to have a girlfriend experience." Whereas what you're discussing is a corporate content farm[1] of exactly 61 brands, most of which are specifically designed to create a "girlfriend experience" in order to intentionally develop obsessions. That is an extremely specific situation which is not representative for >99% of content creators. [1] https://virtualyoutuber.fandom.com/wiki/Hololive https://virtualyoutuber.fandom.com/wiki/Hololive
- mjr00 4y ago
  Hololive is just one example within a specific niche (and even within VTubers it's not the only one -- Nijisanji is pretty large as well now). Are you really telling me that people like Amouranth, Valkyrae, and Pokimane aren't aware of the girlfriend experience? That the whole hot tub streaming drama that led to the creation of an entire new Twitch category wasn't extremely exploitative of lonely, addicted men? Unhealthy parasocial relationships are an extremely lucrative revenue stream for content creators, just like whales with gacha games. Platforms do nothing to discourage this and in fact even encourage it.
  - bryans 4y ago
    Again, you're exaggerating everything. There are literally dozens of hot tubbers among many tens of millions of creators. You're purely discussing extreme niches which, even when combined, don't represent a significant portion of the overall market. So, I'll reiterate that making a declaration of "the vast majority of super fans being dysfunctional and exploited" is outrageously false and disparaging, not to mention being based on no actual data or working knowledge.
    - 4y ago

zamadatix 4y ago

> "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo. Twitch has a "Gift 100 subs $499" button right in the gift UI. If you haven't noticed that with the several hundred live streamers you've consulted with then it seems by definition the streamers you interact with do not have the Super Fans being discussed yet such fans are common enough for Twitch to make UI for it.

bryans 4y ago
Making an option available isn't the same as nefarious marketing and intentional exploitation, which is the entirely false claim being made by the OC. You're also acting incredibly inflammatory by suggesting that I am "ignorant of functionality" and "couldn't possibly work with streamers at that level." Unfortunately for your claim, I've consulted with several of Twitch's top 100 music streamers and have years of direct experience with every type of fan, super and otherwise. The OC's claims are nonsense, and your pedantic nitpicking isn't appropriate or applicable.
- zamadatix 4y ago
  Please don't put quotation marks around words and claims which were not said. The quote was "If you haven't noticed that with the several hundred live streamers you've consulted with then it seems by definition the streamers you interact with do not have the Super Fans" and this does not contain either of those quotes or claims you're disparaging as they were never said. Not working with folks that try to get this type of viewer to press this button multiple times per months is a fantastic thing not something to get inflamed about. At the same time it doesn't mean these types of streamers and fans don't exist just because you don't work with them and clearly they do exist or Twitch wouldn't have bothered to make all of these types of options and fancy effects and the aforementioned bad example streams wouldn't have them triggered constantly. I don't see this as a nit, the claim in question was: > "The companies" aren't marketing high-cost options in any way. Twitch's highest subscription tier is $25/mo Which is central to the arguments and the error core not inconsequential. Companies like Twitch have multiple high-cost options like the aforementioned $499 in one click gift button and the larger the cost for the option chosen the fancier/louder the button and after effects look. If you work with several of Twitches top streamers that's fantastic and it should be easy to verify there are many accounts spending orders of magnitude more than $25/month, super fans are the main folks being marketed to with these options and they make up the majority of their use. Regarding the rest of the GP's claims when it comes to your response: > Some people build cars for fun and spend their disposable income on that experience. Other people enjoy online content and spend their disposable income ensuring that content keeps getting made, or can be made even better. To declare an entire populations' preferred hobby as "dysfunctional" is plainly inflammatory and entirely inappropriate. Super Fans donate hundreds of dollars per action to streamers who are sometimes making millions per year. This is not the "I'm tier 3 for my favorite streamer so they can stay full time" crowd it's the "I'm top bit donator/sub gifter on a top channel" crowd. I consider myself part of the former hobby/support group but I can't see any way to construe the latter group as part of the same hobby either. I'm open to hearing ways that whale segment could be though if you'd be willing to expound