4 ms·

> I don't see why that's such an offensive business to so many HN users. Because the assertion VPNs - apparently unlike every other ISP - do not log or monetiz

> I don't see why that's such an offensive business to so many HN users. Because the assertion VPNs - apparently unlike every other ISP - do not log or monetize your data is simply laughable, especially as so many are based in third-world countries, set up by shell entities and have almost no accountability for any of their claims.

cloutchaser 4y ago
Their entire business model is premised on the fact that they don't. If they ever were found to be, their hundred million dollar businesses (expressvpn) would vanish. When express has their servers seized in turkey, there was no usable data on them. I know you are super paranoid, but that still doesn't make my point wrong, or using a VPN wrong. Again, if you trust a vpn more than your ISP, that's pretty legitimate in many countries.
- 0daystock 4y ago
  Your trust is based on baseless promises and one isolated, possibly even manufactured, incident. I find this to be super naive.
  - dotnet00 4y ago
    You might as well just treat everything as manufactured then. Even this thread must just be manufactured by Big VPN.
    - 0daystock 4y ago
      Not an unreasonable thesis in the age of misinformation.
  - cloutchaser 4y ago
    You clearly have 0 trust in your life. Might want to work on that.
    - 0daystock 4y ago
      Mostly only for untrustworthy VPN services that try to make a buck on technologically illiterate audiences.
      - cloutchaser 4y ago
        Well then maybe look into the practices of your ISP as well. I don’t see why you trust them more.
- jayrot 4y ago
  I'm as generally skeptical as anyone, but I think you've seen that it's essentially impossible to rationally debate with someone who believes in a conspiracy to the point that evidence against it can just be dismissed as part of the conspiracy itself. It's frustrating. I certainly wouldn't trust my life to an unaudited VPN, but I think your two main points are pretty compelling -- 1) the business model is of large VPN companies is based on trust. They have very explicit, business interest in not violating that trust. 2) in one case we know of, when seized, the servers didn't have actionable information on them. Does that mean every VPN company is trustworthy? Of course not. Does it mean that things could change at any time? Of course.

cloutchaser 4y ago

Their entire business model is premised on the fact that they don't. If they ever were found to be, their hundred million dollar businesses (expressvpn) would vanish. When express has their servers seized in turkey, there was no usable data on them. I know you are super paranoid, but that still doesn't make my point wrong, or using a VPN wrong. Again, if you trust a vpn more than your ISP, that's pretty legitimate in many countries.

0daystock 4y ago
Your trust is based on baseless promises and one isolated, possibly even manufactured, incident. I find this to be super naive.
- dotnet00 4y ago
  You might as well just treat everything as manufactured then. Even this thread must just be manufactured by Big VPN.
  - 0daystock 4y ago
    Not an unreasonable thesis in the age of misinformation.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  You clearly have 0 trust in your life. Might want to work on that.
  - 0daystock 4y ago
    Mostly only for untrustworthy VPN services that try to make a buck on technologically illiterate audiences.
    - cloutchaser 4y ago
      Well then maybe look into the practices of your ISP as well. I don’t see why you trust them more.
jayrot 4y ago
I'm as generally skeptical as anyone, but I think you've seen that it's essentially impossible to rationally debate with someone who believes in a conspiracy to the point that evidence against it can just be dismissed as part of the conspiracy itself. It's frustrating. I certainly wouldn't trust my life to an unaudited VPN, but I think your two main points are pretty compelling -- 1) the business model is of large VPN companies is based on trust. They have very explicit, business interest in not violating that trust. 2) in one case we know of, when seized, the servers didn't have actionable information on them. Does that mean every VPN company is trustworthy? Of course not. Does it mean that things could change at any time? Of course.