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All of his demands are either directly related to his health or the moral causes that he champions. He is specific and verbose. Some of these things might see

All of his demands are either directly related to his health or the moral causes that he champions. He is specific and verbose. Some of these things might seem strange to people who are younger than 50 years old, and aren't flown around the world to give hundreds of talks. I think that this demonstrates the value of a clear and verbose contract.

tibbon 15y ago
Precisely. Nothing is left to ambiguity, and then hopefully the fewest possible things will go wrong. About the only thing that I laughed at (in joy) was the thing about parrots...
- stickfigure 15y ago
  Nothing is left to ambiguity? A supply of tea with milk and sugar would be nice. If it is tea I really like, I like it without milk and sugar. With milk and sugar, any kind of tea is fine. I always bring tea bags with me, so if we use my tea bags, I will certainly like that tea without milk or sugar. Really, I think he's just screwing with us. Douglas Adams would be proud.
  - derleth 15y ago
    How is that even somewhat ambiguous? Personal and, perhaps, skirting the outer edge of what a remarkably parochial person might regard as quirky, but he laid out a drink preference specific enough someone has a shopping list and doesn't have to guess. Which is what a rider is for. You don't even need to buy him tea; he explicitly says he always brings his own with him.
    - rgbrgb 15y ago
      Well actually he does say that a supply of tea would be nice. I'm assuming he is not talking about his own supply.
      - Adrock 15y ago
        I assumed that he just wants a tea cup and a hot water supply.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      So if I provide tea he likes, I don't have to provide milk and sugar. If I provide tea he doesn't like, I have to provide milk and sugar. Unless of course he chooses to drink his own tea, in which case my tea, my milk, and my sugar will all go to waste. This is fine, as long as I know precisely what kind of tea he likes. But that's not specified, so I just gotta guess what he might like. And then buy some milk and sugar, just in case he likes my fancy tea just enough to drink it, but not enough to skip the milk and sugar. Really I think he's just writing his opinions on tea off the top of his head.
      - smacktoward 15y ago
        Having had experience organizing lots of public speaking/platform events, I can assure you that "please provide milk and sugar" is one of the easiest-to-comply with requests I've ever seen. He doesn't specify that it must be soy milk, or 2%, or half and half. He doesn't say it has to be natural cane sugar grown on the sunny side of a hill and harvested by certified sugar cane naturalists during the summer solstice. He just wants milk and sugar; beyond that he leaves the details to you. Worst case scenario is that he doesn't use them, in which case you're out what, two dollars? That is peanuts compared to what some riders cost you by specifying elaborate A/V and lighting setups, specific vendors and contractors (i.e. friends of the speaker) you have to deal with, luxury transportation and lodging, et al. As to the "what kind of tea" issue, he helpfully solves the problem for you -- he'll bring his own, which he is guaranteed to like. So there's no scenario where your failure to choose the right tea will result in him being tealess. Strictly speaking the only thing you're on the hook to provide is hot water, which is free and easy to scrounge up at short notice. It's really a remarkably stress-free document, as riders go.
        Samuel_Michon 15y ago
        It would've helped if he had just specified which kind of tea he likes. That way, he wouldn't have needed to write most of that paragraph. Now we're left to guess, which means we will stock several kinds of tea, in the hopes of one being to his liking.
        15y ago
  - mechnik 15y ago
    sounds like a Mother Goose tongue twister: she sells seashells by the seashore, the shells she sells are seashells I am sure, so if she sells seashells by the seashore, I am sure the shells are seashore seashells.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- nodata 15y ago
  DON'T buy a parrot figuring that it will be a fun surprise for me. I love to imagine that this actually happened.
  - bad_user 15y ago
    The best jokes come from actual experience :)
luigi 15y ago
Verbose means excessively wordy. I think you mean succinct.
- jessriedel 15y ago
  "Verbose" is definitely the wrong word if he's defending this contract. Not sure I would call it "succict"; maybe "thorough" or "explicit".
  - rglullis 15y ago
    Comprehensive.
axusgrad 15y ago
"If you can find a host for me that has a friendly parrot, I will be very very glad. If you can find someone who has a friendly parrot I can visit with, that will be nice too." He's fine with coach class, and will sleep on a couch. Better to have more info than too little.
astine 15y ago
"All of his demands are either directly related to his health or the moral causes that he champions." Did you read the same list I did? He requests to stay in somebody's home but specifies a list of foods he doesn't like and demands he be consulted on any meals he's served. Some of his demands relate to his cause, and a few to his health, but overall I'd say he comes across as overly particular and demanding. I guess if he's heavily in demand he can get away with it as there will always be someone willing to accommodate him, but that someone won't be me.
- drivingmenuts 15y ago
  Written out in black-and-white it seems rather cold and heartless, but it merely clarifies what would be a normal practice. If a guest in your house is uncomfortable/unable to eat what you're having, and has given no prior notice, then it can be quite a problem to find out right when mealtime is approaching. This is a sensible way of avoiding unnecessary conflict.
  - jtheory 15y ago
    Right -- I've done my share of being a guest of and a host to many people of different cultures, and a decent share of his points are either a "how to be a good host" checklist, or removing the difficult aspects of being a good host to him (i.e., guessing the needs of a guest who may not express them directly). I think I'm generally a good host, because I read people well. But armed with a document like this, even someone who reads people terribly could be a good host to rms with minimal effort. It doesn't look very hard once you know what he's hoping for; some of his points (like saying he sometimes makes suggestions that may cause inconvenience, and please let him know... like his request that hosts not offer to help him with everything) are basically "I know how to be a good guest if you let me." I've been in those situations (carefully avoiding praising things for fear that your hosts will find some way of giving them to you...), and it's really quite frustrating. If I was a constant guest (and constantly faced with the same frustrations), I'd start compiling a document like this. Over time -- and I'm pretty sure this has been underway for a long time (notice the reference to changing the tape when recording him?) -- I suspect it would grow as this one has.
bmj 15y ago
I think the "flown around the world" bit is the most important. In America (or even Western Europe, for that matter), we may wonder why it includes so much detail. But perhaps by spelling things out, it removes the possibility of cultural misunderstandings.
- yock 15y ago
  Indeed. Including, but perhaps not limited to, possibly offending your hosts/organizers when you don't drink the Pepsi they so carefully provided for you. In the Western world we might not care so much if he leaves a few sodas on the presenter's table. That may not fly so well in cultures that don't drink as much soda and abhor waste far more than we.
  - gbog 15y ago
    What did strike the most is how much this precise description of a conference organization is at odds with Asian culture. I guess rms would not be in his shoes in China for instance.
sunchild 15y ago
Actually, from my perspective as a contracts lawyer, this rider is far from what I would call clear. Like the GPL, it's a helpful document, and cheerfully neurotic, but it leaves lots of room for dispute and confusion. Specificity != clarity. Likewise, verbosity is not an indicator of a good contract. To the contrary.
- Udo 15y ago
  That might be because as a lawyer you're biased to prefer form over intent. I'm sorry if this sounds nasty, it's not supposed to be though. People are different. GNU/Stallman goes to great lengths to describe where he is coming from so the reader can understand what the motivations behind his points are. It's not supposed to be a watertight contract between two parties with opposing agendas who are trying to outmaneuver each other at a soulless semantics game. Instead, the rider is supposed to enable people who already have friendly intentions to understand (and interpolate!) what is important to their guest.
  - sunchild 15y ago
    At the end of the day, a contract doesn't replace a relationship. It just puts everyone on notice about what's intended. Most of the rider is crystal clear. It just gets hard to follow in areas such as the following: A supply of tea with milk and sugar would be nice. If it is tea I really like, I like it without milk and sugar. With milk and sugar, any kind of tea is fine. I always bring tea bags with me, so if we use my tea bags, I will certainly like that tea without milk or sugar. If I am quite sleepy, I would like two cans or small bottles of non-diet Pepsi. (I dislike the taste of coke, and of all diet soda; also, there is an international boycott of the Coca Cola company for killing union organizers in Colombia and Guatemala; see killercoke.org.) However, if I am not very sleepy, I won't want Pepsi, because it is better if I don't drink so much sugar. In more concise (and readable) form: (1) milk and sugar is required, although he may not use it, and (2) Pepsi, not Coke.
    - philwelch 15y ago
      Would it really be Stallman without long moral justifications of every clause?

tibbon 15y ago

Precisely. Nothing is left to ambiguity, and then hopefully the fewest possible things will go wrong. About the only thing that I laughed at (in joy) was the thing about parrots...

stickfigure 15y ago
Nothing is left to ambiguity? A supply of tea with milk and sugar would be nice. If it is tea I really like, I like it without milk and sugar. With milk and sugar, any kind of tea is fine. I always bring tea bags with me, so if we use my tea bags, I will certainly like that tea without milk or sugar. Really, I think he's just screwing with us. Douglas Adams would be proud.
- derleth 15y ago
  How is that even somewhat ambiguous? Personal and, perhaps, skirting the outer edge of what a remarkably parochial person might regard as quirky, but he laid out a drink preference specific enough someone has a shopping list and doesn't have to guess. Which is what a rider is for. You don't even need to buy him tea; he explicitly says he always brings his own with him.
  - rgbrgb 15y ago
    Well actually he does say that a supply of tea would be nice. I'm assuming he is not talking about his own supply.
    - Adrock 15y ago
      I assumed that he just wants a tea cup and a hot water supply.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    So if I provide tea he likes, I don't have to provide milk and sugar. If I provide tea he doesn't like, I have to provide milk and sugar. Unless of course he chooses to drink his own tea, in which case my tea, my milk, and my sugar will all go to waste. This is fine, as long as I know precisely what kind of tea he likes. But that's not specified, so I just gotta guess what he might like. And then buy some milk and sugar, just in case he likes my fancy tea just enough to drink it, but not enough to skip the milk and sugar. Really I think he's just writing his opinions on tea off the top of his head.
    - smacktoward 15y ago
      Having had experience organizing lots of public speaking/platform events, I can assure you that "please provide milk and sugar" is one of the easiest-to-comply with requests I've ever seen. He doesn't specify that it must be soy milk, or 2%, or half and half. He doesn't say it has to be natural cane sugar grown on the sunny side of a hill and harvested by certified sugar cane naturalists during the summer solstice. He just wants milk and sugar; beyond that he leaves the details to you. Worst case scenario is that he doesn't use them, in which case you're out what, two dollars? That is peanuts compared to what some riders cost you by specifying elaborate A/V and lighting setups, specific vendors and contractors (i.e. friends of the speaker) you have to deal with, luxury transportation and lodging, et al. As to the "what kind of tea" issue, he helpfully solves the problem for you -- he'll bring his own, which he is guaranteed to like. So there's no scenario where your failure to choose the right tea will result in him being tealess. Strictly speaking the only thing you're on the hook to provide is hot water, which is free and easy to scrounge up at short notice. It's really a remarkably stress-free document, as riders go.
      - Samuel_Michon 15y ago
        It would've helped if he had just specified which kind of tea he likes. That way, he wouldn't have needed to write most of that paragraph. Now we're left to guess, which means we will stock several kinds of tea, in the hopes of one being to his liking.
        15y ago
- mechnik 15y ago
  sounds like a Mother Goose tongue twister: she sells seashells by the seashore, the shells she sells are seashells I am sure, so if she sells seashells by the seashore, I am sure the shells are seashore seashells.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
nodata 15y ago
DON'T buy a parrot figuring that it will be a fun surprise for me. I love to imagine that this actually happened.
- bad_user 15y ago
  The best jokes come from actual experience :)

luigi 15y ago

Verbose means excessively wordy. I think you mean succinct.

jessriedel 15y ago
"Verbose" is definitely the wrong word if he's defending this contract. Not sure I would call it "succict"; maybe "thorough" or "explicit".
- rglullis 15y ago
  Comprehensive.

axusgrad 15y ago

"If you can find a host for me that has a friendly parrot, I will be very very glad. If you can find someone who has a friendly parrot I can visit with, that will be nice too." He's fine with coach class, and will sleep on a couch. Better to have more info than too little.

astine 15y ago

"All of his demands are either directly related to his health or the moral causes that he champions." Did you read the same list I did? He requests to stay in somebody's home but specifies a list of foods he doesn't like and demands he be consulted on any meals he's served. Some of his demands relate to his cause, and a few to his health, but overall I'd say he comes across as overly particular and demanding. I guess if he's heavily in demand he can get away with it as there will always be someone willing to accommodate him, but that someone won't be me.

drivingmenuts 15y ago
Written out in black-and-white it seems rather cold and heartless, but it merely clarifies what would be a normal practice. If a guest in your house is uncomfortable/unable to eat what you're having, and has given no prior notice, then it can be quite a problem to find out right when mealtime is approaching. This is a sensible way of avoiding unnecessary conflict.
- jtheory 15y ago
  Right -- I've done my share of being a guest of and a host to many people of different cultures, and a decent share of his points are either a "how to be a good host" checklist, or removing the difficult aspects of being a good host to him (i.e., guessing the needs of a guest who may not express them directly). I think I'm generally a good host, because I read people well. But armed with a document like this, even someone who reads people terribly could be a good host to rms with minimal effort. It doesn't look very hard once you know what he's hoping for; some of his points (like saying he sometimes makes suggestions that may cause inconvenience, and please let him know... like his request that hosts not offer to help him with everything) are basically "I know how to be a good guest if you let me." I've been in those situations (carefully avoiding praising things for fear that your hosts will find some way of giving them to you...), and it's really quite frustrating. If I was a constant guest (and constantly faced with the same frustrations), I'd start compiling a document like this. Over time -- and I'm pretty sure this has been underway for a long time (notice the reference to changing the tape when recording him?) -- I suspect it would grow as this one has.

bmj 15y ago

I think the "flown around the world" bit is the most important. In America (or even Western Europe, for that matter), we may wonder why it includes so much detail. But perhaps by spelling things out, it removes the possibility of cultural misunderstandings.

yock 15y ago
Indeed. Including, but perhaps not limited to, possibly offending your hosts/organizers when you don't drink the Pepsi they so carefully provided for you. In the Western world we might not care so much if he leaves a few sodas on the presenter's table. That may not fly so well in cultures that don't drink as much soda and abhor waste far more than we.
- gbog 15y ago
  What did strike the most is how much this precise description of a conference organization is at odds with Asian culture. I guess rms would not be in his shoes in China for instance.

sunchild 15y ago

Actually, from my perspective as a contracts lawyer, this rider is far from what I would call clear. Like the GPL, it's a helpful document, and cheerfully neurotic, but it leaves lots of room for dispute and confusion. Specificity != clarity. Likewise, verbosity is not an indicator of a good contract. To the contrary.

Udo 15y ago
That might be because as a lawyer you're biased to prefer form over intent. I'm sorry if this sounds nasty, it's not supposed to be though. People are different. GNU/Stallman goes to great lengths to describe where he is coming from so the reader can understand what the motivations behind his points are. It's not supposed to be a watertight contract between two parties with opposing agendas who are trying to outmaneuver each other at a soulless semantics game. Instead, the rider is supposed to enable people who already have friendly intentions to understand (and interpolate!) what is important to their guest.
- sunchild 15y ago
  At the end of the day, a contract doesn't replace a relationship. It just puts everyone on notice about what's intended. Most of the rider is crystal clear. It just gets hard to follow in areas such as the following: A supply of tea with milk and sugar would be nice. If it is tea I really like, I like it without milk and sugar. With milk and sugar, any kind of tea is fine. I always bring tea bags with me, so if we use my tea bags, I will certainly like that tea without milk or sugar. If I am quite sleepy, I would like two cans or small bottles of non-diet Pepsi. (I dislike the taste of coke, and of all diet soda; also, there is an international boycott of the Coca Cola company for killing union organizers in Colombia and Guatemala; see killercoke.org.) However, if I am not very sleepy, I won't want Pepsi, because it is better if I don't drink so much sugar. In more concise (and readable) form: (1) milk and sugar is required, although he may not use it, and (2) Pepsi, not Coke.
  - philwelch 15y ago
    Would it really be Stallman without long moral justifications of every clause?