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> But now with the internet, reddit, Discord etc. people can come together and basically "solve" the game they play. meta gaming kills strategy for me. From ba

> But now with the internet, reddit, Discord etc. people can come together and basically "solve" the game they play. meta gaming kills strategy for me. From back when I first started playing AoE3 I was absolutely infatuated with the game and genre, but found myself incapable of winning MP matches. Some guys from the old pre-DE competitive scene helped train me a bit, and I could win MP matches now, but the game is no fun, instead of being a fun 4X/RTS, it was “follow this foundation, time everything perfectly, micro perfectly, min/max everything and it lost most of the appeal. Even more recently CK3, which can be a pretty immersive game, often loses that immersion when the game becomes less about what I do as a king, and more about min/maxing mechanics. A lot of strategy games start to feel less “strategy” and more “who can exploit mechanics and follow predefined path”. Ironically one AoE3 legend rose from nowhere a couple years back with strategies different from the meta and winning. People called him toxic for it.

maccard 4y ago
I don't agree with your take - I've always loved RTS games (played age of empires 2, StarCraft, Warcraft 3, deviated into lol/dota and back to StarCraft 2 and now age of empires 4) - basic strategies in terms of build orders are table stakes for these games and have been since as long as I can remember. You need to be able to react to changing situations in these games. Nobody executes build orders perfectly, and there's RNG in map spawns and layouts that can give you a subtle edge over your opponent. The game is won and lost on being able to react to your opponents moves and follow through on counters to it, the same way chess plays.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  > The game is won and lost on being able to react to your opponents moves and follow through on counters to it, the same way chess plays. Ok fair enough, though to me personally, I’m not very excited by or immersed in chess games either. I’ve trended more towards grand strategy in recent years, which on the surface seem to be closer to what I’m looking for, but in practice often end up being me just trying to min/max modifiers for RNG rolls.
  - wincy 4y ago
    Yeah I mean I totally get it. I’ve been playing a lot of Stellaris lately and want an emergent fun story of being a space empire. Once it feels like I’m playing a simulation I get bored and look for something new. I’ve started playing tabletop role playing games and being interested in those lately because of this. Really I want to tell interesting stories.
  - maccard 4y ago
    Totally fair - it's a pity that how RTS games are presented Vs how they play is very different. I was going to say grand strategy games are probably more what you're looking for. I'm a fan of stellaris and the total war games, and they do lend themselves to min maxing but fatless so than many other games!
- ericdykstra 4y ago
  RTS has always been my preferred competitive genre. Yes, basic build orders are pretty well mapped out. In Starcraft 2, for example, the first 1:30 or so for beginners, the first 3-4 minutes for intermediate players, and the first 8-9 minutes for pros have "standard" build orders. But once you get past this, there's so many things to worry about - balancing tech versus units versus upgrades versus economy, micro, scouting, unit composition, harassing and defending harass... And then the meta layer, which is allocating your limited time and APM to those decisions and actions! Really challenging and rewarding to improve at, and the only "e-sport" I find interesting to watch.

maccard 4y ago

I don't agree with your take - I've always loved RTS games (played age of empires 2, StarCraft, Warcraft 3, deviated into lol/dota and back to StarCraft 2 and now age of empires 4) - basic strategies in terms of build orders are table stakes for these games and have been since as long as I can remember. You need to be able to react to changing situations in these games. Nobody executes build orders perfectly, and there's RNG in map spawns and layouts that can give you a subtle edge over your opponent. The game is won and lost on being able to react to your opponents moves and follow through on counters to it, the same way chess plays.

the_only_law 4y ago
> The game is won and lost on being able to react to your opponents moves and follow through on counters to it, the same way chess plays. Ok fair enough, though to me personally, I’m not very excited by or immersed in chess games either. I’ve trended more towards grand strategy in recent years, which on the surface seem to be closer to what I’m looking for, but in practice often end up being me just trying to min/max modifiers for RNG rolls.
- wincy 4y ago
  Yeah I mean I totally get it. I’ve been playing a lot of Stellaris lately and want an emergent fun story of being a space empire. Once it feels like I’m playing a simulation I get bored and look for something new. I’ve started playing tabletop role playing games and being interested in those lately because of this. Really I want to tell interesting stories.
- maccard 4y ago
  Totally fair - it's a pity that how RTS games are presented Vs how they play is very different. I was going to say grand strategy games are probably more what you're looking for. I'm a fan of stellaris and the total war games, and they do lend themselves to min maxing but fatless so than many other games!
ericdykstra 4y ago
RTS has always been my preferred competitive genre. Yes, basic build orders are pretty well mapped out. In Starcraft 2, for example, the first 1:30 or so for beginners, the first 3-4 minutes for intermediate players, and the first 8-9 minutes for pros have "standard" build orders. But once you get past this, there's so many things to worry about - balancing tech versus units versus upgrades versus economy, micro, scouting, unit composition, harassing and defending harass... And then the meta layer, which is allocating your limited time and APM to those decisions and actions! Really challenging and rewarding to improve at, and the only "e-sport" I find interesting to watch.