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So true! Also, there are no decent UI frameworks for Lisp, so it's impossible to build a full stack app that looks good in a modern browser without adding a TS

So true! Also, there are no decent UI frameworks for Lisp, so it's impossible to build a full stack app that looks good in a modern browser without adding a TS or JS web component layer. And... There's no modern IDE for Lisp. I think this aspect of ignoring UIs and aesthetics has seriously held back CL.

lobstrosity420 4y ago
> Also, there are no decent UI frameworks for Lisp How about CLOG and cl-cffi-gtk?
- dtagames 4y ago
  Ok, thank you for those references I had not seen. CLOG looks like it creates the UI separately and essentially "streams" it to you over a websocket. While novel, that introduces it own problems. Perhaps this why there aren't any working examples that I could find? The CL library you linked is for connection to GTK, a desktop UI scheme. So, while interesting, that doesn't really help someone who is trying to develop a browser-native app, which is where the world has gone at the moment. I think Lisp got left behind on the journey, and I think this UI problem is one of the top reasons, the other one being terrible-non-IDE-like-substances.
  - lobstrosity420 4y ago
    The CLOG approach is not that novel. It's the same tech that Laravel Livewire, Rails Hotwire and Phoenix Liveview are pioneering. I mentioned GTK because your original comment hadn't mentioned you needed browser-native functionality specifically. For that, you would be well served with CLOG or you can try something like HTMX with a CL backend that serves just HTML. I wouldn't go as far as to say CL got left behind in the journey, it's still very much alive. But if you want to go with something with more mainstream appeal (not a bad want IMO) there's always Clojure.
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metagame 4y ago
That's not true at all, and I'm tempted to write something to prove you wrong. My aesthetic choices were intentional, and almost nothing in your comment is right.
- smcn 4y ago
  I'd love read that rebuttal. And I'd ensure that I read it in its gloriously yellow form.

lobstrosity420 4y ago

> Also, there are no decent UI frameworks for Lisp How about CLOG and cl-cffi-gtk?

dtagames 4y ago
Ok, thank you for those references I had not seen. CLOG looks like it creates the UI separately and essentially "streams" it to you over a websocket. While novel, that introduces it own problems. Perhaps this why there aren't any working examples that I could find? The CL library you linked is for connection to GTK, a desktop UI scheme. So, while interesting, that doesn't really help someone who is trying to develop a browser-native app, which is where the world has gone at the moment. I think Lisp got left behind on the journey, and I think this UI problem is one of the top reasons, the other one being terrible-non-IDE-like-substances.
- lobstrosity420 4y ago
  The CLOG approach is not that novel. It's the same tech that Laravel Livewire, Rails Hotwire and Phoenix Liveview are pioneering. I mentioned GTK because your original comment hadn't mentioned you needed browser-native functionality specifically. For that, you would be well served with CLOG or you can try something like HTMX with a CL backend that serves just HTML. I wouldn't go as far as to say CL got left behind in the journey, it's still very much alive. But if you want to go with something with more mainstream appeal (not a bad want IMO) there's always Clojure.

deleted 4y ago

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metagame 4y ago

That's not true at all, and I'm tempted to write something to prove you wrong. My aesthetic choices were intentional, and almost nothing in your comment is right.

smcn 4y ago
I'd love read that rebuttal. And I'd ensure that I read it in its gloriously yellow form.