8 ms·

Something maybe a bit related. I just had 25Gb/s internet installed (https://www.init7.net/en/internet/fiber7/ https://www.init7.net/en/internet/fiber7/), and

by jagrsw 4y ago

Something maybe a bit related. I just had 25Gb/s internet installed (https://www.init7.net/en/internet/fiber7/ https://www.init7.net/en/internet/fiber7/), and at those speeds Chrome and Firefox (which is Chrome-based) pretty much die when using speedtest.net at around 10-12Gbps. The symptoms are that the whole tab freezes, and the shown speed drops from those 10-12Gbps to <1Gbps and the page starts updating itself only every second or so. IIRC Chrome-based browsers use some form of IPC with a separate networking process, which actually handles networking, I wonder if this might be the case that the local speed limit for socketpair/pipe under Linux was reached and that's why I'm seeing this.

implying 4y ago
Firefox is not based on the chromium codebase, it is older.
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  Well if we're talking ancestors that's technically true, but not by that much - Firefox comes from Netscape, Chrome/Safari/... come from KHTML.
  - elpescado 4y ago
    AFAIR, KHTML was/is not related to Netscape/Gecko in any way.
  - wodenokoto 4y ago
    > ... on August 16, 1999 that [Lars Knoll] had checked in what amounted to a complete rewrite of the KHTML library—changing KHTML to use the standard W3C DOM as its internal document representation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHTML#Re-write_and_improvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHTML#Re-write_and_improvement > In March 1998, Netscape released most of the code base for its popular Netscape Communicator suite under an open source license. The name of the application developed from this would be Mozilla, coordinated by the newly created Mozilla Organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Application_Suite#History_and_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Application_Suite#Hist... Netscape Communicator (or Netscape 4) was released in 1997, so If we are tracing lineage, I'd say Firefox has a 2 year head start.
def- 4y ago
Firefox is only Chrome-based on iOS.
- rwaksmunski 4y ago
  You mean WebKit.
- karamanolev 4y ago
  It's Safari-based, which is Webkit-based. Chrome is also Safari-based on iOS, because all the browsers must be. There's no actual Chrome (as in Blink, the browser engine) on iOS, at least in Play Store.
  - Izkata 4y ago
    > It's Safari-based, which is Webkit-based. Firefox only uses Webkit on iOS, due to Apple requirements. It uses Gecko everywhere else. And I don't think it's ever been Safari-based anywhere.
    - karamanolev 4y ago
      Replying to > Firefox is only Chrome-based on iOS. So I'm talking only about iOS. When I said it's Safari-based, I meant Webkit based, but I thought Firefox/Chrome actually pull parts of Safari on iOS. Quick research says that's wrong and they just use Webkit. Not an iOS dev, so someone can point out better sources for the 100% correct terminology.
jve 4y ago
Do you actually mean Gbit/s? 25Gb/s would translate to 200Gbit/s ...
- Denvercoder9 4y ago
  The small "b" is customarily used to refer to bits, with the large "B" used to refer to bytes. So 25 Gb/s would be 25 Gbit/s, while 25 GB/s would be 200 Gbit/s.
- karamanolev 4y ago
  Gb != GB. Per Wikipedia, which aligns with my understanding, "The gigabit has the unit symbol Gbit or Gb." 25GB/s would translate to 200Gbit/s and also 200Gb/s.
reitanqild 4y ago
> and at those speeds Chrome and Firefox (which is Chrome-based) AFAIK, Firefox is not Chrome-based anywhere. On iOS it uses whatever iOS provides for webview - as does Chrome on iOS. Firefox and Safari is now the only supported mainstream browsers that has their own rendering engines. Firefox is the only that has their own rendering engine and is cross platform. It is also open source.
- yosamino 4y ago
  > AFAIK, Firefox is not Chrome-based anywhere. Not technically "Chrome-based", but Firefox draws graphics using Chrome's Skia graphics engine. Firefox is not completely independent from Chrome.
  - SahAssar 4y ago
    Skia started in 2004 independently of google and was then acquired by google. Calling it "Chrome's Skia graphics engine" makes it sound like it was built for chrome.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - bawolff 4y ago
    I feel like counting every library is silly. In any case, i thought chrome used libnss which is a mozilla library, so you could say the reverse as well.
- SahAssar 4y ago
  > Firefox is the only that has their own rendering engine and is cross platform. Interestingly safaris rendering engine is open source and cross platform, but the browser is not. Lots of linux-focused browsers (konquerer, gnome web, surf) and most embedded browsers (nintendo ds & switch, playstation) use webkit. Also some user interfaces (like WebOS, which is running all of LG's TVs and smart refrigerators) use webkit as their renderer.
sph 4y ago
This makes me wonder... does anyone offer an iperf-based speedtest service on the Internet?
- scoopr 4y ago
  Well there are some public iperf servers listed here: https://iperf.fr/iperf-servers.php https://iperf.fr/iperf-servers.php
  - r3dey3 4y ago
    https://github.com/R0GGER/public-iperf3-servers https://github.com/R0GGER/public-iperf3-servers is also a good list - a couple more US servers in various datacenters
- jagrsw 4y ago
  Ha.. my ISP does :) I can hit those 25Gb/s when connecting directly (bypassing the router as it barely handles those 25Gb/s). With it in the way I get ~15-20Gb/s $ iperf3 -l 1M --window 64M -P10 -c speedtest.init7.net .. [SUM] 0.00-1.00 sec 1.87 GBytes 16.0 Gbits/sec 181406 $ iperf3 -R -l 1M --window 64M -P10 -c speedtest.init7.net .. [SUM] 0.00-1.00 sec 2.29 GBytes 19.6 Gbits/sec
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
jcims 4y ago
Speedtest does have a CLI as well, might be interesting to compare them.
- jagrsw 4y ago
  Yup, the CLI version works well - https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e9104814-294f-4927-af9f-d466ac5f3da7 https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e9104814-294f-4927-af9f-d...
- zrail 4y ago
  Thing to note: the open source version on GitHub, installable by homebrew and native package managers, is not the same version as Ookla distributes from their website and is not accurate at all.
bayindirh 4y ago
Chrome fires many processes and creates an IPC based comm-network between them to isolate stuff. It's somewhat abusing your OS to get what its want in terms of isolation and whatnot. (Which is similar to how K8S abuses ip-tables and makes it useless for other ends, and makes you install a dedicated firewall in front of your ingress path, but let's not digress). On the other hand, Firefox is neither chromium based, nor is a cousin of it. It's a completely different codebase, inherited from Netscape days and evolved up to this point. As another test point, Firefox doesn't even blink at a symmetric gigabit connection going at full speed (my network is capped by my NIC, the pipe is way fatter).
- jagrsw 4y ago
  > As another test point, Firefox doesn't even blink at a symmetric gigabit connection going at full speed (my network is capped by my NIC, the pipe is way fatter). FWIW Firefox under Linux (Firefox Browser 100.0.2 (64-bit)) behaves pretty much the same as Chrome. The speed raises quickly to 5-8Gb/s, then the UI starts choking, and the shown speed drops to 500Mb/s. It could be that there's some scheduling limit or other bottleneck hit in the OS itself, assuming these are different codebases (are they?).
  - bayindirh 4y ago
    I'd love to test and debug the path where it dies, but none of the systems we have firefox have pipes that fat (again NIC limited). However, you can test the limits of Linux by installing CLI version of Speedtest and hitting a nearby server. The bottleneck maybe in the browser itself, or in your graphics stack, too. Linux can do pretty amazing things in the network department, otherwise 100Gbps Infiniband cards wouldn't be possible at Linux servers, yet we have them on our systems. And yes, Chrome and Firefox are way different browsers. I can confidently say this, because I'm using Firefox since it's called Netscape 6.0 (and Mozilla in Knoppix).
    - bawolff 4y ago
      > I can confidently say this, because I'm using Firefox since it's called Netscape 6.0 (and Mozilla in Knoppix). Mozilla suite/seamonkey isn't usually considered the same as firefox, although obviously related.
merightnow 4y ago
Unrelated question, what hardware do you use to setup your network for 25Gb/s? I've been looking at init7 for a while, but gave up and stayed with Salt after trying to find the right hardware for the job.
- jagrsw 4y ago
  NIC: Intel E810-XXVDA2 Optics: To ISP: Flexoptics (https://www.flexoptix.net/de/p-b1625g-10-ad.html?co10426=97205 https://www.flexoptix.net/de/p-b1625g-10-ad.html?co10426=972...), Router-PC: https://mikrotik.com/product/S-3553LC20D https://mikrotik.com/product/S-3553LC20D Router: Mikrotik CCR-2004 - https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2004_1g_12s_2xs https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2004_1g_12s_2xs - warning: it's good to up to ~20Gb/s one way. It can handle ~25Gb/s down, but only ~18Gb/s up, and with IPv6 the max seems to be ~10Gb/s any direction. If Mikrotik is something you're comfortable using you can also take a look at https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2216_1g_12xs_2xq https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2216_1g_12xs_2xq - it's more expensive (~2500EUR), but should handle 25Gb/s easily.
  - zrail 4y ago
    IIRC most Mikrotik products lack hardware IPv6 offload which is probably why you're seeing lower speeds.
    - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
      In that case 10Gb/s sounds actually pretty good, if that's without hardware offload.
pca006132 4y ago
Is it only affecting the browser or the entire system? It might be possible that the CPU is busy handling interrupts from the ethernet controller, although in general these controllers should use DMA and should not send interrupts frequently.
- jagrsw 4y ago
  Only browser(s), the OS is capable of 25Gb/s - checked with iperf and also speedtest-cli - https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e9104814-294f-4927-af9f-d466ac5f3da7 https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e9104814-294f-4927-af9f-d...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Spooky23 4y ago
I ran into this with a VDI environment in a data center. We had initially delivered 10Gb Ethernet to the VMs, because why not. Turned out windows 7 or the NICs needed a lot of tuning to work well. There was alot of freezing and other fail.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jcranberry 4y ago
Sounds like a hard drive cache filling up.
- megous 4y ago
  One would assume speed testing website would use `Cache-Control: no-store`... But alas, they do not, lol. They just use no-cache on the query which will not prevent the browser from storing the data. https://megous.com/dl/tmp/8112dd9346dd66e8.png https://megous.com/dl/tmp/8112dd9346dd66e8.png

by jagrsw 4y ago

implying 4y ago

Firefox is not based on the chromium codebase, it is older.

formerly_proven 4y ago
Well if we're talking ancestors that's technically true, but not by that much - Firefox comes from Netscape, Chrome/Safari/... come from KHTML.
- elpescado 4y ago
  AFAIR, KHTML was/is not related to Netscape/Gecko in any way.
- wodenokoto 4y ago
  > ... on August 16, 1999 that [Lars Knoll] had checked in what amounted to a complete rewrite of the KHTML library—changing KHTML to use the standard W3C DOM as its internal document representation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHTML#Re-write_and_improvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHTML#Re-write_and_improvement > In March 1998, Netscape released most of the code base for its popular Netscape Communicator suite under an open source license. The name of the application developed from this would be Mozilla, coordinated by the newly created Mozilla Organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Application_Suite#History_and_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Application_Suite#Hist... Netscape Communicator (or Netscape 4) was released in 1997, so If we are tracing lineage, I'd say Firefox has a 2 year head start.

def- 4y ago

Firefox is only Chrome-based on iOS.

rwaksmunski 4y ago
You mean WebKit.
karamanolev 4y ago
It's Safari-based, which is Webkit-based. Chrome is also Safari-based on iOS, because all the browsers must be. There's no actual Chrome (as in Blink, the browser engine) on iOS, at least in Play Store.
- Izkata 4y ago
  > It's Safari-based, which is Webkit-based. Firefox only uses Webkit on iOS, due to Apple requirements. It uses Gecko everywhere else. And I don't think it's ever been Safari-based anywhere.
  - karamanolev 4y ago
    Replying to > Firefox is only Chrome-based on iOS. So I'm talking only about iOS. When I said it's Safari-based, I meant Webkit based, but I thought Firefox/Chrome actually pull parts of Safari on iOS. Quick research says that's wrong and they just use Webkit. Not an iOS dev, so someone can point out better sources for the 100% correct terminology.

jve 4y ago

Do you actually mean Gbit/s? 25Gb/s would translate to 200Gbit/s ...

Denvercoder9 4y ago
The small "b" is customarily used to refer to bits, with the large "B" used to refer to bytes. So 25 Gb/s would be 25 Gbit/s, while 25 GB/s would be 200 Gbit/s.
karamanolev 4y ago
Gb != GB. Per Wikipedia, which aligns with my understanding, "The gigabit has the unit symbol Gbit or Gb." 25GB/s would translate to 200Gbit/s and also 200Gb/s.

reitanqild 4y ago

> and at those speeds Chrome and Firefox (which is Chrome-based) AFAIK, Firefox is not Chrome-based anywhere. On iOS it uses whatever iOS provides for webview - as does Chrome on iOS. Firefox and Safari is now the only supported mainstream browsers that has their own rendering engines. Firefox is the only that has their own rendering engine and is cross platform. It is also open source.

yosamino 4y ago
> AFAIK, Firefox is not Chrome-based anywhere. Not technically "Chrome-based", but Firefox draws graphics using Chrome's Skia graphics engine. Firefox is not completely independent from Chrome.
- SahAssar 4y ago
  Skia started in 2004 independently of google and was then acquired by google. Calling it "Chrome's Skia graphics engine" makes it sound like it was built for chrome.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- bawolff 4y ago
  I feel like counting every library is silly. In any case, i thought chrome used libnss which is a mozilla library, so you could say the reverse as well.
SahAssar 4y ago
> Firefox is the only that has their own rendering engine and is cross platform. Interestingly safaris rendering engine is open source and cross platform, but the browser is not. Lots of linux-focused browsers (konquerer, gnome web, surf) and most embedded browsers (nintendo ds & switch, playstation) use webkit. Also some user interfaces (like WebOS, which is running all of LG's TVs and smart refrigerators) use webkit as their renderer.

sph 4y ago

This makes me wonder... does anyone offer an iperf-based speedtest service on the Internet?

scoopr 4y ago
Well there are some public iperf servers listed here: https://iperf.fr/iperf-servers.php https://iperf.fr/iperf-servers.php
- r3dey3 4y ago
  https://github.com/R0GGER/public-iperf3-servers https://github.com/R0GGER/public-iperf3-servers is also a good list - a couple more US servers in various datacenters
jagrsw 4y ago
Ha.. my ISP does :) I can hit those 25Gb/s when connecting directly (bypassing the router as it barely handles those 25Gb/s). With it in the way I get ~15-20Gb/s $ iperf3 -l 1M --window 64M -P10 -c speedtest.init7.net .. [SUM] 0.00-1.00 sec 1.87 GBytes 16.0 Gbits/sec 181406 $ iperf3 -R -l 1M --window 64M -P10 -c speedtest.init7.net .. [SUM] 0.00-1.00 sec 2.29 GBytes 19.6 Gbits/sec
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

jcims 4y ago

Speedtest does have a CLI as well, might be interesting to compare them.

jagrsw 4y ago
Yup, the CLI version works well - https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e9104814-294f-4927-af9f-d466ac5f3da7 https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e9104814-294f-4927-af9f-d...
zrail 4y ago
Thing to note: the open source version on GitHub, installable by homebrew and native package managers, is not the same version as Ookla distributes from their website and is not accurate at all.

bayindirh 4y ago

Chrome fires many processes and creates an IPC based comm-network between them to isolate stuff. It's somewhat abusing your OS to get what its want in terms of isolation and whatnot. (Which is similar to how K8S abuses ip-tables and makes it useless for other ends, and makes you install a dedicated firewall in front of your ingress path, but let's not digress). On the other hand, Firefox is neither chromium based, nor is a cousin of it. It's a completely different codebase, inherited from Netscape days and evolved up to this point. As another test point, Firefox doesn't even blink at a symmetric gigabit connection going at full speed (my network is capped by my NIC, the pipe is way fatter).

jagrsw 4y ago
> As another test point, Firefox doesn't even blink at a symmetric gigabit connection going at full speed (my network is capped by my NIC, the pipe is way fatter). FWIW Firefox under Linux (Firefox Browser 100.0.2 (64-bit)) behaves pretty much the same as Chrome. The speed raises quickly to 5-8Gb/s, then the UI starts choking, and the shown speed drops to 500Mb/s. It could be that there's some scheduling limit or other bottleneck hit in the OS itself, assuming these are different codebases (are they?).
- bayindirh 4y ago
  I'd love to test and debug the path where it dies, but none of the systems we have firefox have pipes that fat (again NIC limited). However, you can test the limits of Linux by installing CLI version of Speedtest and hitting a nearby server. The bottleneck maybe in the browser itself, or in your graphics stack, too. Linux can do pretty amazing things in the network department, otherwise 100Gbps Infiniband cards wouldn't be possible at Linux servers, yet we have them on our systems. And yes, Chrome and Firefox are way different browsers. I can confidently say this, because I'm using Firefox since it's called Netscape 6.0 (and Mozilla in Knoppix).
  - bawolff 4y ago
    > I can confidently say this, because I'm using Firefox since it's called Netscape 6.0 (and Mozilla in Knoppix). Mozilla suite/seamonkey isn't usually considered the same as firefox, although obviously related.

merightnow 4y ago

Unrelated question, what hardware do you use to setup your network for 25Gb/s? I've been looking at init7 for a while, but gave up and stayed with Salt after trying to find the right hardware for the job.

jagrsw 4y ago
NIC: Intel E810-XXVDA2 Optics: To ISP: Flexoptics (https://www.flexoptix.net/de/p-b1625g-10-ad.html?co10426=97205 https://www.flexoptix.net/de/p-b1625g-10-ad.html?co10426=972...), Router-PC: https://mikrotik.com/product/S-3553LC20D https://mikrotik.com/product/S-3553LC20D Router: Mikrotik CCR-2004 - https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2004_1g_12s_2xs https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2004_1g_12s_2xs - warning: it's good to up to ~20Gb/s one way. It can handle ~25Gb/s down, but only ~18Gb/s up, and with IPv6 the max seems to be ~10Gb/s any direction. If Mikrotik is something you're comfortable using you can also take a look at https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2216_1g_12xs_2xq https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2216_1g_12xs_2xq - it's more expensive (~2500EUR), but should handle 25Gb/s easily.
- zrail 4y ago
  IIRC most Mikrotik products lack hardware IPv6 offload which is probably why you're seeing lower speeds.
  - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
    In that case 10Gb/s sounds actually pretty good, if that's without hardware offload.

pca006132 4y ago

Is it only affecting the browser or the entire system? It might be possible that the CPU is busy handling interrupts from the ethernet controller, although in general these controllers should use DMA and should not send interrupts frequently.

jagrsw 4y ago
Only browser(s), the OS is capable of 25Gb/s - checked with iperf and also speedtest-cli - https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e9104814-294f-4927-af9f-d466ac5f3da7 https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e9104814-294f-4927-af9f-d...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Spooky23 4y ago

I ran into this with a VDI environment in a data center. We had initially delivered 10Gb Ethernet to the VMs, because why not. Turned out windows 7 or the NICs needed a lot of tuning to work well. There was alot of freezing and other fail.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jcranberry 4y ago

Sounds like a hard drive cache filling up.

megous 4y ago
One would assume speed testing website would use `Cache-Control: no-store`... But alas, they do not, lol. They just use no-cache on the query which will not prevent the browser from storing the data. https://megous.com/dl/tmp/8112dd9346dd66e8.png https://megous.com/dl/tmp/8112dd9346dd66e8.png