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I think that if Stadivari were alive today making violins using the same materials and techniques, the instrument would not sound the same as those cherished ov

I think that if Stadivari were alive today making violins using the same materials and techniques, the instrument would not sound the same as those cherished over the centuries. New wood stringed instruments do not sound as good as old, well-played instruments. I think the reason Stradivari violins sound so good is that they are so old and have been played for centuries. Over time, vibrating wood with oscillating strings, it changes the wood, the atoms in the wood will literally eventually align in such a way that the wooden pieces themselves become tuned to specific complimentary frequencies, increasing sustain and improving timbre.

ouid 4y ago
well definitely not. Today the correct thing to do with brand confidence is cut costs and cash in on consumer trust.
dr_dshiv 4y ago
> Over time, vibrating wood with oscillating strings, it changes the wood, the atoms in the wood will literally eventually align in such a way that the wooden pieces themselves become tuned to specific complimentary frequencies, increasing sustain and improving timbre. Awesome hypothesis. Should be testable. E.g. exposing the wood to extended high amplitude sounds?
- Perenti 4y ago
  And if done changes the tone of the instrument. Is not unknown amongst the acoustic guitar players that you can improve the tone by subjecting the instrument to recorded music for a _long_ time.
  - alexvoda 4y ago
    Can you back up that claim? Just so we are clear, to my understanding, I believe your claim is equivalent to: Take 2 (2 * n in order to account for variations in individual instruments) instruments as close to identical as possible. Tune both instruments. Digitally record the sound profile of each one. Place one in a silent chamber. Place the other in a chamber with a music source. Ensures all other parameters of the chambers are equal (temperature, humidity, sunlight, etc.). After x amount of time, take the instruments from the chambers. Digitally record the sound profile of each one a second time. The outcome you claim is that the delta for the instrument in the music chamber is noticeably different to the delta of the instrument in the quiet chamber. Furthermore you claim that this effect is known among guitar players. I suggest that in addition to the effect being highly improbable, no person exists with actual knowledge of such a phenomenon, only with belief about it and anecdotal evidence that does not account for other parameters. I suggest that all anecdotal evidence can be explained by a combination of: - survivorship bias (good sounding instruments are taken care of and survive longer) - differences in maintenance, environmental conditions, source materials, construction technique - differences in use (being constantly properly tensioned and calibrated compared to wood working unconstrained) - observer bias (a beloved or famed instrument will be favoured) I suggest that good sounding instruments are not left unplayed yet properly cared for and therefore no one has ever observed such a phenomenon. Chances are, any cared for instrument will also be played, therefore what people have observed is the difference between pampered instruments and neglected instruments. If you actually have any evidence, please back up your claim.
    - dr_dshiv 4y ago
      So, I’m unclear on the outcome measures. Some sort of shift in the power spectral density? E.g., play all 5 strings 10 times and average— then blast with sound for extended time (guitar music, single tone, white noise, silence) then repeat measures?
lupire 4y ago
How is that even possible, since the strings play different notes and each string plays many notesm
alexvoda 4y ago
I do not know whether age has an effect on violin sound. Highly plausible that it does through a multitude of ways. But this: > Over time, vibrating wood with oscillating strings, it changes the wood, the atoms in the wood will literally eventually align in such a way that the wooden pieces themselves become tuned to specific complimentary frequencies, This is a textbook case of bullshit. A clasical case of using scientific words to sound more convincing. What you are claiming is literally that wood cristalises. Unless you actually have research with electron-microscope pictures to demonstrate such a claim, you are talking crap and spewing it with confidence. "atoms in the wood will literally eventually align" is analogous to to homeopathy. Compare "The water molecules in the glass of water vibrate according the energy level of the information of the message you shout at it."
- Perenti 4y ago
  I've owned several acoustic guitar over the last 50 years and guitar tone changes over time, based on how much music it hears/makes. If you take a midrange guitar and put it on a stand near a speaker, and subject it to moderately loud music for days on end the sound _does_ change for the better. This is a commonly observed affect. Other guitarists have mentioned it to me. Now maybe op didn't word the physics and material science precisely, but what they describe is real. Perhaps you have a better explanation for a commonly observed phenomena.
  - eurasiantiger 4y ago
    Mass psychosis. Has anyone tried to quantify this phenomenon?
- Maursault 4y ago
  I was not suggesting pieces of the instrument turn into diamond. Everything vibrates at some frequency. Sympathetic resonance occurs when a passive string or vibratory body responds to external vibrations to which it has a harmonic. What I and others are suggesting is very similar to this phenomenon. The wooden body of the instrument changes over time as it is resonated by its own strings, such that it settles in such a way to be resonant of a fundamental frequency. For an acoustic guitar, depending on how it is played, this may mean the entire back piece of the guitar tunes itself to E, A, D, G, or C, as these are the most common open chords due to how the guitar is tuned. I'm not an acoustical physicist nor a luthier. Perhaps I've used the wrong terms. But I think maybe you can't see the forest for a tree blocking your view, which you've gotten hung up on. Here is a bad citation.[1] Your searchfu is probably better than mine. Feel free to find a better citation. [1] https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/4661/manufacturer-claims-guitars-sound-will-improve-the-more-i-play-it-is-that-true https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/4661/manufacturer-...

ouid 4y ago

well definitely not. Today the correct thing to do with brand confidence is cut costs and cash in on consumer trust.

dr_dshiv 4y ago

> Over time, vibrating wood with oscillating strings, it changes the wood, the atoms in the wood will literally eventually align in such a way that the wooden pieces themselves become tuned to specific complimentary frequencies, increasing sustain and improving timbre. Awesome hypothesis. Should be testable. E.g. exposing the wood to extended high amplitude sounds?

Perenti 4y ago
And if done changes the tone of the instrument. Is not unknown amongst the acoustic guitar players that you can improve the tone by subjecting the instrument to recorded music for a _long_ time.
- alexvoda 4y ago
  Can you back up that claim? Just so we are clear, to my understanding, I believe your claim is equivalent to: Take 2 (2 * n in order to account for variations in individual instruments) instruments as close to identical as possible. Tune both instruments. Digitally record the sound profile of each one. Place one in a silent chamber. Place the other in a chamber with a music source. Ensures all other parameters of the chambers are equal (temperature, humidity, sunlight, etc.). After x amount of time, take the instruments from the chambers. Digitally record the sound profile of each one a second time. The outcome you claim is that the delta for the instrument in the music chamber is noticeably different to the delta of the instrument in the quiet chamber. Furthermore you claim that this effect is known among guitar players. I suggest that in addition to the effect being highly improbable, no person exists with actual knowledge of such a phenomenon, only with belief about it and anecdotal evidence that does not account for other parameters. I suggest that all anecdotal evidence can be explained by a combination of: - survivorship bias (good sounding instruments are taken care of and survive longer) - differences in maintenance, environmental conditions, source materials, construction technique - differences in use (being constantly properly tensioned and calibrated compared to wood working unconstrained) - observer bias (a beloved or famed instrument will be favoured) I suggest that good sounding instruments are not left unplayed yet properly cared for and therefore no one has ever observed such a phenomenon. Chances are, any cared for instrument will also be played, therefore what people have observed is the difference between pampered instruments and neglected instruments. If you actually have any evidence, please back up your claim.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    So, I’m unclear on the outcome measures. Some sort of shift in the power spectral density? E.g., play all 5 strings 10 times and average— then blast with sound for extended time (guitar music, single tone, white noise, silence) then repeat measures?

lupire 4y ago

How is that even possible, since the strings play different notes and each string plays many notesm

alexvoda 4y ago

I do not know whether age has an effect on violin sound. Highly plausible that it does through a multitude of ways. But this: > Over time, vibrating wood with oscillating strings, it changes the wood, the atoms in the wood will literally eventually align in such a way that the wooden pieces themselves become tuned to specific complimentary frequencies, This is a textbook case of bullshit. A clasical case of using scientific words to sound more convincing. What you are claiming is literally that wood cristalises. Unless you actually have research with electron-microscope pictures to demonstrate such a claim, you are talking crap and spewing it with confidence. "atoms in the wood will literally eventually align" is analogous to to homeopathy. Compare "The water molecules in the glass of water vibrate according the energy level of the information of the message you shout at it."

Perenti 4y ago
I've owned several acoustic guitar over the last 50 years and guitar tone changes over time, based on how much music it hears/makes. If you take a midrange guitar and put it on a stand near a speaker, and subject it to moderately loud music for days on end the sound _does_ change for the better. This is a commonly observed affect. Other guitarists have mentioned it to me. Now maybe op didn't word the physics and material science precisely, but what they describe is real. Perhaps you have a better explanation for a commonly observed phenomena.
- eurasiantiger 4y ago
  Mass psychosis. Has anyone tried to quantify this phenomenon?
Maursault 4y ago
I was not suggesting pieces of the instrument turn into diamond. Everything vibrates at some frequency. Sympathetic resonance occurs when a passive string or vibratory body responds to external vibrations to which it has a harmonic. What I and others are suggesting is very similar to this phenomenon. The wooden body of the instrument changes over time as it is resonated by its own strings, such that it settles in such a way to be resonant of a fundamental frequency. For an acoustic guitar, depending on how it is played, this may mean the entire back piece of the guitar tunes itself to E, A, D, G, or C, as these are the most common open chords due to how the guitar is tuned. I'm not an acoustical physicist nor a luthier. Perhaps I've used the wrong terms. But I think maybe you can't see the forest for a tree blocking your view, which you've gotten hung up on. Here is a bad citation.[1] Your searchfu is probably better than mine. Feel free to find a better citation. [1] https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/4661/manufacturer-claims-guitars-sound-will-improve-the-more-i-play-it-is-that-true https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/4661/manufacturer-...