6 ms·

All of my career I prioritized short commutes, which led to living in tiny apartments (as small as 25 sqmt) within a short commute from work. When Covid hit we

• colechristensen 4y ago
  Everyone on HN who loves urban density should read things like this. Quality of life cooped up in a dense urban setting, especially with a family, is awful. There's so much space in the world, we don't need to pack ourselves in tiny urban centers near "tech hubs" at all.
  • kibwen 4y ago
    I grew up with one parent in the burbs and the other in the boonies, and today I live in a city and I'll never go back to anywhere that isn't eminently walkable. I don't value space, I value proximity to lots of people. I'm happy that WFH allows people who value the opposite to vacate the cities that make them miserable in order to free up room for people who crave density.
    • criddell 4y ago
      For me, what I want has changed a lot over my life. In my 20's I craved density. I loved the energy and options of cities. 30 years later, I'm the opposite. I live in the suburbs in a house big enough to give me a home gym, workshop, office, etc... but if I had a self-driving car and could get great internet, I'd move way out of the city. I want a little more space and a lot less noise.
      • wolverine876 4y ago
        Many people follow the same pattern as they age. I think many in this discussion are attributing to WFH and other things what is a common outcome of just getting older.
      • kibwen 4y ago
        Regarding noise, I've told this story before on HN, but the loudest place I've lived was the aforementioned house in the boonies, where the noise from passing trucks and motorcycles at all hours of the night was intolerable. My place in the city is far quieter, ironic given that it's literally a hundred yards or so from a turnpike and a rail line (never once heard the train passing in all these years, somehow). As for the gym, the workshop, the office, I'd personally rather share those with the community. As mentioned, I'm in the city because I enjoy being around people, which isn't to say that I want to work in an office (hell no), but I do want to work in public among people doing their own work (and who, unlike co-workers, won't be constantly pestering me with questions). Which is to say, my riposte is that the older I get the more I realize that community is what I crave, and that I was dissatisfied with the community that I found in my rural and suburban lives: finding a community in the city is harder, because you actually have to try, but much more fulfilling IME.
        • criddell 4y ago
          Yeah, it's definitely going to be situational. I grew up in rural southwestern Ontario and it was very, very quiet. I moved to a city to go to university and at that time the extra noise didn't bother me (I definitely was responsible for my fair share of it), but I did miss being able to see the night sky. If I'm honest, a big factor for me is probably related to my financials. When I was young, I was pretty poor and lived in shitty neighborhoods in low quality but high density buildings. Thirty years later, I live in a pretty great suburb in my own house with my best friend/wife, dog and my kids (who are home from university for the summer). The night sky here is decent, but I know it could be even better.
      • screye 4y ago
        > lot less noise. Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud [1] Having lived in many different types of cities, it is always the car-centric downtowns and suburban main-streets that are loudest. Well designed & walkable cities are actually pretty mild when it comes to noise. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8
  • asdff 4y ago
    To be fair there is a lot more to do in urban centers. I felt cooped up in less dense places, that's why I moved away from there and into a denser place with no shortage of things to do throughout the year.
  • tomtheelder 4y ago
    This comment makes no sense. Folks who love urban density... love urban density. Why would reading a comment from someone who feels differently be important to us? I totally respect the parent comments opinion, but their lived experience differs from mine entirely. > Quality of life cooped up in a dense urban setting, especially with a family, is awful. This is unbelievably subjective, and you simply cannot state this as if it's a fact. I have lived in rural, suburban, and dense urban settings, and my quality of life was by far, by far, the highest in the city. Almost every aspect of my life was improved when I moved to a dense urban center. Urban centers are not simply desirable because of jobs! Many of us simply prefer the lifestyle they afford!
    • colechristensen 4y ago
      The people on HN want to push their preferences on everyone and change cities to appeal to their usually single-ish, 20s-ish lifestyle of appreciating a 600 sq ft apartment
      • diob 4y ago
        I think it's more that folks wish we would build upwards more.
      • DragonStrength 4y ago
        Do they? When I was that age, I read all the time in tech-friendly press about how much I wanted those things, but I assure you I never did. It's always seemed like a narrative pushed by people who have just assumed the next generation will line up to spend even more money for less. I suspect if 25-35 year olds could reasonably afford 3 bedrooms in the Bay Area we wouldn't be having this issue at all, ignoring density of this area. But don't make the mistake of conflating 700 sqft apts w/urban centers. On today's remote wages, an engineer can afford the kind of modest home in a walkable urban area in many parts of the US, but affording that on even NY and Bay Area Big Tech wages is looking out of grasp for that next generation. It certainly looks a lot riskier.
      • wolverine876 4y ago
        Could you provide some examples of that? Most of what I see is trying to impose the trend of the moment, that cities are bad.
  • wffurr 4y ago
    "closer to family" seemed like a big part of the improvement here.
    • angarg12 4y ago
      We got a winner! We moved to the countryside to be closer to my wife's family. My family lives in a big city in another country, so we could have moved there instead, if that didn't involve a massive pay cut.
  • turtlebits 4y ago
    There are lots of suburban neighborhoods that will give short commutes. They just cost a bit more. I have a 7 minute commute, but live in a house with a yard - and walking distance to an Arboretum.
  • countvonbalzac 4y ago
    Awful for you, but a lot of people love the walkability / bikeability of cities and the proximity to services, activities, and other people.
  • legitster 4y ago
    I enjoy living in a big house in the country, but I also enjoyed city living. It's nice walking everywhere and not having to own a car! I think the big kicker is that city living in the US is drastically overpriced.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • goatcode 4y ago
    Disagree. Life in the country is horrible. Please don't come, stay in cities, everyone. You wouldn't like it here at all : >
  • Steltek 4y ago
    My kids have independence and freedom of movement long before they're even close to driving age. Something they can never have in the suburbs.
  • wolverine876 4y ago
    As others say, the density means you are walking distance - and otherwise public transit or bicycling distance - from all sorts of services, arts, etc. that aren't in the suburbs. I'll add that those services, arts, etc. include much that is far better than what is in the suburbs - better food, art, music, etc. etc. That doesn't appeal to everyone, of course, but if you care about it, then there is no substitute. Look up a listing of music playing this weekend in NYC, for example. Look up arts and museums. etc.
  • lamontcg 4y ago
    This shouldn't really be an either-or. People who want to and can work remotely should move to suburbs, dropping rents and housing costs in the dense urban centers. Suburbs should also be redesigned with more neighborhood commercial so that they're less designed around driving for miles to massive clusters of big box stores. It would also be interesting to have more decentralized density, so clusters of density out in present-day suburbia. That could provide a bit more population density to support the commercial real estate for the surrounding low density residential.
  • angarg12 4y ago
    But I do love urban density! I grew up and lived 90% of my life in big cities. Moving to a village was a big shift for me. I love the space but I also appreciate it's boring AF. If I could choose I'd probably go for a house, not as big, within 1 hour trip to a big city. That way I could get the best balance for my lifestyle.
  • screye 4y ago
    Both are the exact same problem. Most of the US has outlawed the 'middle housing' [1], leaving us with massive crammed skyscraper concrete jungles or sprawling suburbia. Cities in developed countries around the world do not have to made this trade-off between space and walkability. Apartments are sufficiently big for families, while having everything within arms reach. If anything, public spaces allow for more amenities available for more people. Unless your definition of space is 'private' space (private gardens, private yards, private gyms), there is plenty of space in well planned cities. Lastly, suburbs simply do not pay their fair share in taxes. [2] They are incredibly inefficient and deplete city resources such that the city goes bankrupt the second a recession hits. I would be fine with suburbs if that's what people want. But, pay your fair share in taxes, renounce any high ground on the climate change debate and for the love of God, stop making anything that isn't a suburb illegal to build. (looking at you Berkeley...and every other deep-blue liberal suburb) [1] https://missingmiddlehousing.com/ https://missingmiddlehousing.com/ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI