5 ms·

I know this is a very contentious issue, and I'm by no means an expert. I don't think there are any correct paths, especially when it comes to tax payer expense

by zeryx 4y ago

I know this is a very contentious issue, and I'm by no means an expert. I don't think there are any correct paths, especially when it comes to tax payer expenses, but I can't help feeling like this is giving up. Very crude and unhelpful anecdote coming: I recently travelled to a US West Coast city for the first time in 4 years, and the change was stark: homeless in every street corner, drug dealers selling meth and heroin on the street, while tech workers were driving beside in their luxury SUVs. I couldn't help but feel like this city has become Gotham, and that crime was everywhere; and there was nothing anyone could do. I know it's not just US cities, but the only place in Canada (as a Canadian) I've seen this similar devolution is in Vancouver. I'd honestly really appreciate being directed to arguments that showcase that decriminalization of drugs and theft provide any positive outcomes beyond less incarceration rates. I really feel for the people on the street who have gotten there, and the residents that live nearby - I would certainly not want to live there or visit again.

fnbr 4y ago
Right, but they _just_ decriminalized drugs, so we haven’t seen the impact. What you’re describing in Vancouver is the result of the existing policies which criminalized drugs.
water554 4y ago
You decriminalize drugs and criminalize pitching a tent in the park. The benefit is that the government no longer tells an individual what they can and cannot put into their own body.
jamil7 4y ago
Decriminalisation alone won't improve what you're talking about. But the idea usually is decriminalisation plus redirecting those freed up funds into policies for harm reduction, addiction treatment, injection rooms etc. Reframing it as a public health issue not a criminal issue. The only example I know of is Portugal.
stevehiehn 4y ago
When I moved to Vancouver from Toronto I found the homeless population striking. I'd ask people why they thought its the case. Many folks are of the mind that its pretty much the only city in Canada a person can sleep on the street 365d a yr. I'm sure there are other reasons but if you don't understand how dangerously cold a Canadian winter gets you might not factor this in.
- carapace 4y ago
  Yup, this. I was homeless for a few years, mostly on the West Coast but I got around. The amount of bullshit a person can get away with correlates roughly with how cold it gets in Winter. In places where Winter kills people you can't be too unreliable or shitty because if the rest of the community shuns you, you die. (I spent a couple of weeks in Boulder one Winter and my knuckles still ache when I think about it.)
- hydrok9 4y ago
  Yeah, this is a real thing. I live in Winnipeg, with it's famously intense winters, and the homeless population rapidly thins out around November, only to reappear in April.
ChefboyOG 4y ago
I appreciate your experience here. If you're interested, I'd highly recommend looking into Portugal's results in decriminalizing drugs (coinciding with an enormous reduction in opioid overdoses): https://www.apa.org/monitor/2018/10/portugal-opioid https://www.apa.org/monitor/2018/10/portugal-opioid I'd also recommending looking into the UK's previous method of treating opioid addiction, commonly referred to as "The British system." Vice is hardly an unbiased source, but they serve as a good entry point on this topic imo: https://www.vice.com/en/article/yw4nnk/how-the-us-stopped-a-possible-solution-to-the-heroin-epidemic https://www.vice.com/en/article/yw4nnk/how-the-us-stopped-a-... It's important to note that the systems people hold up as evidence of decriminalization's success are rarely "solely" down to decriminalization. Typically, they involve a broader "substance-abuse-as-public-health-crisis" approach. However, decriminalization is essential for such an approach to work.
Tiktaalik 4y ago
I feel that not doing this, not trying new, innovative strategies, would be giving up. We already know things that don't work. We know that Regan era "don't do drugs" screens on arcade machines doesn't work. If we were truly giving up we'd be sticking with what we know doesn't work and turning off our brains to the fact that it doesn't work. Instead what we're seeing is people searching around for new innovative approaches to the problem that haven't be tried yet. To your point around crime, it is thought that this decriminalization effort may reduce petty theft. One of the most significant changes being made here in Vancouver is that police can no longer confiscate small amounts of drugs. Up to this point they were doing this very often. Not just drug dealers, but frequently confiscating from regular users. It is thought that this active policing and confiscation has helped to contribute to a cycle of petty theft, in that the police are effectively robbing drug users and forcing them to spend more of their income on drugs. When a person's drugs they need to feel normal are confiscated, their need for them doesn't go away, and they immediately have a new problem in that need to buy more. Stealing something to sell from a car or store is a very quick way to get that money. Effectively at this point not confiscating drugs is giving drug users more income and reducing pressure to steal to earn more income. Will people continue to steal for other reasons? Perhaps some. There are also lots of agencies giving free food and there is minimum assistance and (not enough) social housing, so it is argued that the support network is good enough that people shouldn't need to steal to survive. The next step here as well is that this decriminalization is a path to a safe prescribed supply of drugs, which would further save drug users money.
lamontcg 4y ago
> drug dealers selling meth and heroin on the street meth and heroin are quite criminalized over the whole of the US yet this is still happening. the drugs are just a symptom -- both on a personal level and on a societal level.

by zeryx 4y ago

fnbr 4y ago

Right, but they _just_ decriminalized drugs, so we haven’t seen the impact. What you’re describing in Vancouver is the result of the existing policies which criminalized drugs.

water554 4y ago

You decriminalize drugs and criminalize pitching a tent in the park. The benefit is that the government no longer tells an individual what they can and cannot put into their own body.

jamil7 4y ago

Decriminalisation alone won't improve what you're talking about. But the idea usually is decriminalisation plus redirecting those freed up funds into policies for harm reduction, addiction treatment, injection rooms etc. Reframing it as a public health issue not a criminal issue. The only example I know of is Portugal.

stevehiehn 4y ago

When I moved to Vancouver from Toronto I found the homeless population striking. I'd ask people why they thought its the case. Many folks are of the mind that its pretty much the only city in Canada a person can sleep on the street 365d a yr. I'm sure there are other reasons but if you don't understand how dangerously cold a Canadian winter gets you might not factor this in.

carapace 4y ago
Yup, this. I was homeless for a few years, mostly on the West Coast but I got around. The amount of bullshit a person can get away with correlates roughly with how cold it gets in Winter. In places where Winter kills people you can't be too unreliable or shitty because if the rest of the community shuns you, you die. (I spent a couple of weeks in Boulder one Winter and my knuckles still ache when I think about it.)
hydrok9 4y ago
Yeah, this is a real thing. I live in Winnipeg, with it's famously intense winters, and the homeless population rapidly thins out around November, only to reappear in April.

ChefboyOG 4y ago

I appreciate your experience here. If you're interested, I'd highly recommend looking into Portugal's results in decriminalizing drugs (coinciding with an enormous reduction in opioid overdoses): https://www.apa.org/monitor/2018/10/portugal-opioid https://www.apa.org/monitor/2018/10/portugal-opioid I'd also recommending looking into the UK's previous method of treating opioid addiction, commonly referred to as "The British system." Vice is hardly an unbiased source, but they serve as a good entry point on this topic imo: https://www.vice.com/en/article/yw4nnk/how-the-us-stopped-a-possible-solution-to-the-heroin-epidemic https://www.vice.com/en/article/yw4nnk/how-the-us-stopped-a-... It's important to note that the systems people hold up as evidence of decriminalization's success are rarely "solely" down to decriminalization. Typically, they involve a broader "substance-abuse-as-public-health-crisis" approach. However, decriminalization is essential for such an approach to work.

Tiktaalik 4y ago

I feel that not doing this, not trying new, innovative strategies, would be giving up. We already know things that don't work. We know that Regan era "don't do drugs" screens on arcade machines doesn't work. If we were truly giving up we'd be sticking with what we know doesn't work and turning off our brains to the fact that it doesn't work. Instead what we're seeing is people searching around for new innovative approaches to the problem that haven't be tried yet. To your point around crime, it is thought that this decriminalization effort may reduce petty theft. One of the most significant changes being made here in Vancouver is that police can no longer confiscate small amounts of drugs. Up to this point they were doing this very often. Not just drug dealers, but frequently confiscating from regular users. It is thought that this active policing and confiscation has helped to contribute to a cycle of petty theft, in that the police are effectively robbing drug users and forcing them to spend more of their income on drugs. When a person's drugs they need to feel normal are confiscated, their need for them doesn't go away, and they immediately have a new problem in that need to buy more. Stealing something to sell from a car or store is a very quick way to get that money. Effectively at this point not confiscating drugs is giving drug users more income and reducing pressure to steal to earn more income. Will people continue to steal for other reasons? Perhaps some. There are also lots of agencies giving free food and there is minimum assistance and (not enough) social housing, so it is argued that the support network is good enough that people shouldn't need to steal to survive. The next step here as well is that this decriminalization is a path to a safe prescribed supply of drugs, which would further save drug users money.

lamontcg 4y ago

> drug dealers selling meth and heroin on the street meth and heroin are quite criminalized over the whole of the US yet this is still happening. the drugs are just a symptom -- both on a personal level and on a societal level.