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Woodworker here. Yeah, the title is literally wrong - someone pointed out that they a/b test titles, etc. So just ars being ars i guess. The paper doesn't cla

Woodworker here. Yeah, the title is literally wrong - someone pointed out that they a/b test titles, etc. So just ars being ars i guess. The paper doesn't claim it's the varnish, it claims it's the wood treatment and its effect on density. That would make some sense. The varnish is the finishing layer that is on top. That layer is also, fwiw, about 3-5 mils most of the time (IE 0.003-0.005 inches). Depends obviously on what and why (IE marine finishes are thicker, etc). It's affect on sound is almost certainly near nil. If you could produce serious damping effects with 0.003-0.005 of a coating, we'd use it on walls, etc. In reality, mass is much more important, which is why the treatment affecting the moisture content and density of wood would make more sense.

gonzo41 4y ago
I thought the reason they sounded so good was they were made from reclaimed church timber, old beams and such, and were thus touched by the angels. Wouldn't the older wood just be lighter, dryer and less dense?
- shuckles 4y ago
  Wood’s quality don’t change much once it’s harvested. Old wood is more often from natural forests where trees grow slowly due to resource competition and therefore have tighter growth rings. New wood is usually from lumber farms where trees are planted and managed such that they grow quickly and end up being less dense.
  - tzs 4y ago
    Doesn't the moisture content change over time after the wood is harvested, leading to small changes in size of the wood? I recall seeing instrument making videos where they mentioned the importance of using wood that had aged long enough to stabilize so that dimensions would not change after it was on the instrument. Some instruments have parts whose dimensions are critical.
    - DannyBee 4y ago
      Moisture content changes to equilibrium with environment. The rate at which this happens is dependent on how well sealed it is, but as there is permeability, and time, it will happen ;) The only exception is if the wood is transformed in a way that does not enable it to absorb water (or as much of it), such as petrification, etc.
    - singron 4y ago
      Wood used for this purpose is almost definitely dried (either naturally or with a kiln) and will thenceforth seek equilibrium with its environment. It's pretty unusual to use green/undried wood for anything, although I've heard of using it for log-cabin type things.
      - m463 4y ago
        I don't know much about wood in respect to drying/moisture, but I remember reading about the "enertia" house where they used wood with a certain resin that would phase change around room temperature to be comfortable naturally. I wonder if this is green wood https://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/17/a-home-that-heats-and-cools-itself/ https://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/17/a-home-that-heats...
    - wildzzz 4y ago
      When doing woodworking, you typically want to let the wood get comfortable to the controlled temperature and humidity in the workshop for a couple days. This lets the wood warp and expand/contract to settle in a consistent shape and size. Then you'll cut it and fasten it together so that when the humidity and temperature does change, the joinery keeps the wood in the intended shape.
  - soperj 4y ago
    And yet there are a bunch of Japanese instruments that are made from Paulownia which is one of the fastest growing trees around, and not dense at all.
    - austhrow743 4y ago
      Are they of a similar quality to Stadivari?
      - Fezzik 4y ago
        Probably. Professional musicians are unable to distinguish between modern violins and Stradivari. It’s just hype. The key point is summarized in this very article: “In fact, a 2012 double-blind study of 21 experienced violinists found that most of the subjects preferred playing the newer instruments; the Stradivarius ranked last in their preferences. Most of them couldn't tell the difference between the old and new instruments, with no significant correlation between an instrument's age and its monetary value.”
bergenty 4y ago
itronitron 4y ago
I stopped reading Ars regularly when they started replacing articles with videos. Apparently that was a commandment to them from on high, so I expect the authors don't have a lot of control on the final form of their articles.
lostlogin 4y ago
> The varnish is the finishing layer that is on top. That layer is also, fwiw, about 3-5 mils most of the time Are you saying the varnish is that thick, or the layer the varnish is on is that thick? Painting on a 3-5mm thick layer of varnish sounds like a lot of coats. The below link is from someone who makes violins and they make the top 2.7-2.8mm total thickness. https://www.violincellomaker.com/2021/03/17/how-the-thickness-matters/ https://www.violincellomaker.com/2021/03/17/how-the-thicknes... Edit: rereading your comment makes me think that you’re saying the total top thickness is usually 3-5mm.
- drifkin 4y ago
  "mils" often means 1/1000th of an inch
  - layer8 4y ago
    Hence 3-5 mils are only roughly 1/10th of a millimeter.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    Argh. Mils (when spoken) means mm in metric land.
- wildzzz 4y ago
  Finishes like stain or paint as well as adhesives in the manufacturing industry are often called out in mils or thousandths of an inch. We use something called a thin film test to ensure paint is the correct thickness so that really tight tolerances can be maintained. We also using tiny glass beads of a consistent diameter that are mixed in with certain types of adhesives to create a controlled bondline thickness. We have a part that requires a really tightly controlled thermal interface to a circuit board. The solution is to use a specific amount of epoxy mixed with a specific amount of boron nitride powder and a specific amount of glass beads to have a consistent thermal conductivity for every squirt of the glue.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
Maursault 4y ago
I think that if Stadivari were alive today making violins using the same materials and techniques, the instrument would not sound the same as those cherished over the centuries. New wood stringed instruments do not sound as good as old, well-played instruments. I think the reason Stradivari violins sound so good is that they are so old and have been played for centuries. Over time, vibrating wood with oscillating strings, it changes the wood, the atoms in the wood will literally eventually align in such a way that the wooden pieces themselves become tuned to specific complimentary frequencies, increasing sustain and improving timbre.
- ouid 4y ago
  well definitely not. Today the correct thing to do with brand confidence is cut costs and cash in on consumer trust.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  > Over time, vibrating wood with oscillating strings, it changes the wood, the atoms in the wood will literally eventually align in such a way that the wooden pieces themselves become tuned to specific complimentary frequencies, increasing sustain and improving timbre. Awesome hypothesis. Should be testable. E.g. exposing the wood to extended high amplitude sounds?
  - Perenti 4y ago
    And if done changes the tone of the instrument. Is not unknown amongst the acoustic guitar players that you can improve the tone by subjecting the instrument to recorded music for a _long_ time.
    - alexvoda 4y ago
      Can you back up that claim? Just so we are clear, to my understanding, I believe your claim is equivalent to: Take 2 (2 * n in order to account for variations in individual instruments) instruments as close to identical as possible. Tune both instruments. Digitally record the sound profile of each one. Place one in a silent chamber. Place the other in a chamber with a music source. Ensures all other parameters of the chambers are equal (temperature, humidity, sunlight, etc.). After x amount of time, take the instruments from the chambers. Digitally record the sound profile of each one a second time. The outcome you claim is that the delta for the instrument in the music chamber is noticeably different to the delta of the instrument in the quiet chamber. Furthermore you claim that this effect is known among guitar players. I suggest that in addition to the effect being highly improbable, no person exists with actual knowledge of such a phenomenon, only with belief about it and anecdotal evidence that does not account for other parameters. I suggest that all anecdotal evidence can be explained by a combination of: - survivorship bias (good sounding instruments are taken care of and survive longer) - differences in maintenance, environmental conditions, source materials, construction technique - differences in use (being constantly properly tensioned and calibrated compared to wood working unconstrained) - observer bias (a beloved or famed instrument will be favoured) I suggest that good sounding instruments are not left unplayed yet properly cared for and therefore no one has ever observed such a phenomenon. Chances are, any cared for instrument will also be played, therefore what people have observed is the difference between pampered instruments and neglected instruments. If you actually have any evidence, please back up your claim.
dang 4y ago
Ok, we've taken off the varnish and replaced it with wood treatment above. Thanks!
- lupire 4y ago
  Ars did too!

gonzo41 4y ago

I thought the reason they sounded so good was they were made from reclaimed church timber, old beams and such, and were thus touched by the angels. Wouldn't the older wood just be lighter, dryer and less dense?

shuckles 4y ago
Wood’s quality don’t change much once it’s harvested. Old wood is more often from natural forests where trees grow slowly due to resource competition and therefore have tighter growth rings. New wood is usually from lumber farms where trees are planted and managed such that they grow quickly and end up being less dense.
- tzs 4y ago
  Doesn't the moisture content change over time after the wood is harvested, leading to small changes in size of the wood? I recall seeing instrument making videos where they mentioned the importance of using wood that had aged long enough to stabilize so that dimensions would not change after it was on the instrument. Some instruments have parts whose dimensions are critical.
  - DannyBee 4y ago
    Moisture content changes to equilibrium with environment. The rate at which this happens is dependent on how well sealed it is, but as there is permeability, and time, it will happen ;) The only exception is if the wood is transformed in a way that does not enable it to absorb water (or as much of it), such as petrification, etc.
  - singron 4y ago
    Wood used for this purpose is almost definitely dried (either naturally or with a kiln) and will thenceforth seek equilibrium with its environment. It's pretty unusual to use green/undried wood for anything, although I've heard of using it for log-cabin type things.
    - m463 4y ago
      I don't know much about wood in respect to drying/moisture, but I remember reading about the "enertia" house where they used wood with a certain resin that would phase change around room temperature to be comfortable naturally. I wonder if this is green wood https://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/17/a-home-that-heats-and-cools-itself/ https://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/17/a-home-that-heats...
  - wildzzz 4y ago
    When doing woodworking, you typically want to let the wood get comfortable to the controlled temperature and humidity in the workshop for a couple days. This lets the wood warp and expand/contract to settle in a consistent shape and size. Then you'll cut it and fasten it together so that when the humidity and temperature does change, the joinery keeps the wood in the intended shape.
- soperj 4y ago
  And yet there are a bunch of Japanese instruments that are made from Paulownia which is one of the fastest growing trees around, and not dense at all.
  - austhrow743 4y ago
    Are they of a similar quality to Stadivari?
    - Fezzik 4y ago
      Probably. Professional musicians are unable to distinguish between modern violins and Stradivari. It’s just hype. The key point is summarized in this very article: “In fact, a 2012 double-blind study of 21 experienced violinists found that most of the subjects preferred playing the newer instruments; the Stradivarius ranked last in their preferences. Most of them couldn't tell the difference between the old and new instruments, with no significant correlation between an instrument's age and its monetary value.”

bergenty 4y ago

itronitron 4y ago

I stopped reading Ars regularly when they started replacing articles with videos. Apparently that was a commandment to them from on high, so I expect the authors don't have a lot of control on the final form of their articles.

lostlogin 4y ago

> The varnish is the finishing layer that is on top. That layer is also, fwiw, about 3-5 mils most of the time Are you saying the varnish is that thick, or the layer the varnish is on is that thick? Painting on a 3-5mm thick layer of varnish sounds like a lot of coats. The below link is from someone who makes violins and they make the top 2.7-2.8mm total thickness. https://www.violincellomaker.com/2021/03/17/how-the-thickness-matters/ https://www.violincellomaker.com/2021/03/17/how-the-thicknes... Edit: rereading your comment makes me think that you’re saying the total top thickness is usually 3-5mm.

drifkin 4y ago
"mils" often means 1/1000th of an inch
- layer8 4y ago
  Hence 3-5 mils are only roughly 1/10th of a millimeter.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  Argh. Mils (when spoken) means mm in metric land.
wildzzz 4y ago
Finishes like stain or paint as well as adhesives in the manufacturing industry are often called out in mils or thousandths of an inch. We use something called a thin film test to ensure paint is the correct thickness so that really tight tolerances can be maintained. We also using tiny glass beads of a consistent diameter that are mixed in with certain types of adhesives to create a controlled bondline thickness. We have a part that requires a really tightly controlled thermal interface to a circuit board. The solution is to use a specific amount of epoxy mixed with a specific amount of boron nitride powder and a specific amount of glass beads to have a consistent thermal conductivity for every squirt of the glue.
- lostlogin 4y ago

Maursault 4y ago

I think that if Stadivari were alive today making violins using the same materials and techniques, the instrument would not sound the same as those cherished over the centuries. New wood stringed instruments do not sound as good as old, well-played instruments. I think the reason Stradivari violins sound so good is that they are so old and have been played for centuries. Over time, vibrating wood with oscillating strings, it changes the wood, the atoms in the wood will literally eventually align in such a way that the wooden pieces themselves become tuned to specific complimentary frequencies, increasing sustain and improving timbre.

ouid 4y ago
well definitely not. Today the correct thing to do with brand confidence is cut costs and cash in on consumer trust.
dr_dshiv 4y ago
> Over time, vibrating wood with oscillating strings, it changes the wood, the atoms in the wood will literally eventually align in such a way that the wooden pieces themselves become tuned to specific complimentary frequencies, increasing sustain and improving timbre. Awesome hypothesis. Should be testable. E.g. exposing the wood to extended high amplitude sounds?
- Perenti 4y ago
  And if done changes the tone of the instrument. Is not unknown amongst the acoustic guitar players that you can improve the tone by subjecting the instrument to recorded music for a _long_ time.
  - alexvoda 4y ago
    Can you back up that claim? Just so we are clear, to my understanding, I believe your claim is equivalent to: Take 2 (2 * n in order to account for variations in individual instruments) instruments as close to identical as possible. Tune both instruments. Digitally record the sound profile of each one. Place one in a silent chamber. Place the other in a chamber with a music source. Ensures all other parameters of the chambers are equal (temperature, humidity, sunlight, etc.). After x amount of time, take the instruments from the chambers. Digitally record the sound profile of each one a second time. The outcome you claim is that the delta for the instrument in the music chamber is noticeably different to the delta of the instrument in the quiet chamber. Furthermore you claim that this effect is known among guitar players. I suggest that in addition to the effect being highly improbable, no person exists with actual knowledge of such a phenomenon, only with belief about it and anecdotal evidence that does not account for other parameters. I suggest that all anecdotal evidence can be explained by a combination of: - survivorship bias (good sounding instruments are taken care of and survive longer) - differences in maintenance, environmental conditions, source materials, construction technique - differences in use (being constantly properly tensioned and calibrated compared to wood working unconstrained) - observer bias (a beloved or famed instrument will be favoured) I suggest that good sounding instruments are not left unplayed yet properly cared for and therefore no one has ever observed such a phenomenon. Chances are, any cared for instrument will also be played, therefore what people have observed is the difference between pampered instruments and neglected instruments. If you actually have any evidence, please back up your claim.

dang 4y ago

Ok, we've taken off the varnish and replaced it with wood treatment above. Thanks!

lupire 4y ago
Ars did too!