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It sounds like you’ve never had to deal with an addict in your close personal circle. I’m glad for you. When addicts cannot find a supply of their chosen drug,

It sounds like you’ve never had to deal with an addict in your close personal circle. I’m glad for you. When addicts cannot find a supply of their chosen drug, they’ll steal from anyone, even those closest to them, to fund their addiction. If they go homeless, you can’t give them money because you can’t trust that they won’t just use it to buy more drugs. This is to ignore the fact that buying most hard drugs directly funds the Mexican drug cartels and the atrocities they commit in many countries. This is also to ignore the terrible and unrecoverable health effects that many drugs have. Have you heard of meth mouth? Meth rots your teeth no matter how much you brush them [0]. It also causes permanent brain damage but I find that the kind of people pushing to legalize meth find losing teeth to be a worse outcome. Jail isn’t the best outcome for inmates, sure, but it’s the cheapest. If you’re a Governor of a US state and your voters see that you took money away from schools, the police, the fire department, or the roads to give to addicts instead, you’re not going to get re-elected. [0] https://www.mouthhealthy.org/en/az-topics/m/meth-mouth https://www.mouthhealthy.org/en/az-topics/m/meth-mouth

Tenoke 4y ago
Nobody is arguing that there aren't cases where drugs have negative effects. What's argued it whether banning or allowing them has more negative effects.
thebean11 4y ago
Agree with most of your comment, but I think "meth mouth" is pretty much debunked. It's the lifestyle of a meth addict that rots your teeth not the meth itself, nothing in your link claims it rots your teeth "no matter how much you brush them".
dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
Drug addiction is a health issue. I have a close family member who was a fairly typical junkie now he is given a nice opiate substitute by state health system and he's a productive member of society. Most of the harm associated with drug addiction comes from societal demonizing of the addicted.
- travisathougies 4y ago
  Rabies is also a health issue, yet that doesn't mean we let rabid people out on the streets to terrorize others. The government is also responsible for the reasonable safety of the public, and psychotic people (regardless of the cause) shouldn't be given free passes to be out in public.
  - hydrok9 4y ago
    the opiod substitute given to this person's relative made him no longer psychotic
    - travisathougies 4y ago
      I was responding to the claim that most of the societal harm comes from demonization. No it does not. It comes from the behavior of the addicts.
      - hydrok9 4y ago
        the behaviour of the addicts is (largely) due to the addiction, therefore anything which impedes the addict from getting treatment (such as demonization) is the main driver of the societal harm which arises due to addiction :) I say largely because there ARE people who simply will refuse treatment due to other personality issues, or are generally anti-social otherwise.
Isinlor 4y ago
Should we put people in jail for obesity, smoking addiction or drinking addiction? The societal costs of these diseases is bigger than any of the illegal drugs. Handling of ill people should be the job of the health care system, not punitive system.
- jimbob45 4y ago
  The logic is that these hard drugs are so addictive that their users cannot stop themselves from committing crimes to acquire more of the hard drugs. Fat-rich food, cigarettes, and alcohol are several orders of magnitude less addictive than the hard drugs we're talking about. I think you're making a false equivalence here.
  - Isinlor 4y ago
    They can stop themselves, but they need help with quitting addiction, not punishment for their illness. Also, alcohol is one of the worst drugs, but it is legal. > In the early 2000s, the monetary cost of alcohol-related crime in the United States alone has been estimated at over $205 billion, more than twice the economic cost of all other drug-related crimes. > Alcohol is implicated in one quarter of all homicides globally. > A report released in 2001 showed that 80% of violent crime committed by young people in Estonia has been linked to alcohol abuse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol-related_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol-related_crime https://web.archive.org/web/20140504141105/http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/88/9/10-010910/en/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140504141105/http://www.who.in...
  - hydrok9 4y ago
    Hm, orders of magnitude less addictive sure, but still extremely difficult for people to stop (especially long-term), and very damaging to their own life and taxing on health systems.
dtech 4y ago
You're conflating multiple issues. Banning drugs doesn't stop their usage, nor does legalizing them, so the negative health effects of drugs are irrelevant. Funding criminals is only a problem because they are illegal. Addicts stealing is less of an issue and getting them help is easier in a system where users aren't criminals.
- swearwolf 4y ago
  “Addicts stealing is less of an issue and getting them help is easier in a system where users aren't criminals.” I don’t think this is necessarily true, and especially not if one area decriminalizes drug possession while another nearby does not. At least that’s been my anecdotal experience in Oregon. Theft of all kinds is through the roof right now. Of course, it’s impossible to disentangle the current situation from the effects of COVID-19, but I see a lot fewer smashed shop windows in Vancouver Washington than I do in Portland.

Tenoke 4y ago

Nobody is arguing that there aren't cases where drugs have negative effects. What's argued it whether banning or allowing them has more negative effects.

thebean11 4y ago

Agree with most of your comment, but I think "meth mouth" is pretty much debunked. It's the lifestyle of a meth addict that rots your teeth not the meth itself, nothing in your link claims it rots your teeth "no matter how much you brush them".

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago

Drug addiction is a health issue. I have a close family member who was a fairly typical junkie now he is given a nice opiate substitute by state health system and he's a productive member of society. Most of the harm associated with drug addiction comes from societal demonizing of the addicted.

travisathougies 4y ago
Rabies is also a health issue, yet that doesn't mean we let rabid people out on the streets to terrorize others. The government is also responsible for the reasonable safety of the public, and psychotic people (regardless of the cause) shouldn't be given free passes to be out in public.
- hydrok9 4y ago
  the opiod substitute given to this person's relative made him no longer psychotic
  - travisathougies 4y ago
    I was responding to the claim that most of the societal harm comes from demonization. No it does not. It comes from the behavior of the addicts.
    - hydrok9 4y ago
      the behaviour of the addicts is (largely) due to the addiction, therefore anything which impedes the addict from getting treatment (such as demonization) is the main driver of the societal harm which arises due to addiction :) I say largely because there ARE people who simply will refuse treatment due to other personality issues, or are generally anti-social otherwise.

Isinlor 4y ago

Should we put people in jail for obesity, smoking addiction or drinking addiction? The societal costs of these diseases is bigger than any of the illegal drugs. Handling of ill people should be the job of the health care system, not punitive system.

jimbob45 4y ago
The logic is that these hard drugs are so addictive that their users cannot stop themselves from committing crimes to acquire more of the hard drugs. Fat-rich food, cigarettes, and alcohol are several orders of magnitude less addictive than the hard drugs we're talking about. I think you're making a false equivalence here.
- Isinlor 4y ago
  They can stop themselves, but they need help with quitting addiction, not punishment for their illness. Also, alcohol is one of the worst drugs, but it is legal. > In the early 2000s, the monetary cost of alcohol-related crime in the United States alone has been estimated at over $205 billion, more than twice the economic cost of all other drug-related crimes. > Alcohol is implicated in one quarter of all homicides globally. > A report released in 2001 showed that 80% of violent crime committed by young people in Estonia has been linked to alcohol abuse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol-related_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol-related_crime https://web.archive.org/web/20140504141105/http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/88/9/10-010910/en/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140504141105/http://www.who.in...
- hydrok9 4y ago
  Hm, orders of magnitude less addictive sure, but still extremely difficult for people to stop (especially long-term), and very damaging to their own life and taxing on health systems.

dtech 4y ago

You're conflating multiple issues. Banning drugs doesn't stop their usage, nor does legalizing them, so the negative health effects of drugs are irrelevant. Funding criminals is only a problem because they are illegal. Addicts stealing is less of an issue and getting them help is easier in a system where users aren't criminals.

swearwolf 4y ago
“Addicts stealing is less of an issue and getting them help is easier in a system where users aren't criminals.” I don’t think this is necessarily true, and especially not if one area decriminalizes drug possession while another nearby does not. At least that’s been my anecdotal experience in Oregon. Theft of all kinds is through the roof right now. Of course, it’s impossible to disentangle the current situation from the effects of COVID-19, but I see a lot fewer smashed shop windows in Vancouver Washington than I do in Portland.