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I think they’d reply that those salaries come from a time when in person work was expected. It’s the remote companies that are effectively giving you a pay ris

I think they’d reply that those salaries come from a time when in person work was expected. It’s the remote companies that are effectively giving you a pay rise. Let’s see how it works out now their competitors are back in-office - the next few years will be a big experiment on the efficacy of remote work (unlike the last, where there was no control group).

warpeggio 4y ago
Ah yes, the cargo cult of productivity - if i'm in the office, i'm producing value. I think about this quote from Bezos in 2017 a lot, which is quoted in Mik Kersten's Project to Product: "As companies get larger and more complex, there’s a tendency to manage to proxies. This comes in many shapes and sizes, and it’s dangerous, subtle, and very Day 2. A common example is process as proxy. Good process serves you so you can serve customers. But if you’re not watchful, the process can become the thing. This can happen very easily in large organizations. The process becomes the proxy for the result you want. You stop looking at outcomes and just make sure you’re doing the process right." I'd say "being in the office" is a proxy here.
- randomsearch 4y ago
  > I'd say "being in the office" is a proxy here. Recently I've been reading some docs on productivity, inspired by a comment on HN. There are some solid findings - don't work too many hours, put your team in a single office so they can directly chat to each other as and when needed, avoid external interruptions from outside that office, etc. It seems that a lot of the findings of improving productivity in-person may also imply that remote work drops productivity. For example, being at home with a bunch of other people in your house might dramatically increase the possibility of external interruption to the team. A discussion between two people in an office might be lower-friction and also instantly bring in other team mates to help if relevant - whilst that might lower individual productivity, the team as a whole is more productive. And this is not just speculation rather looking at existing studies and applying their conclusions to remote. Speculation from me: there's also the matter of lost communication through coffee and lunch breaks. Building that mutual understanding between individuals and about the system surely increases productivity. I think there's a big assumption on HN that individual productivity correlates with team and company productivity, and so if you get more "stuff" done wfh then it must be best. But that clearly isn't true from the experiments we've already done.
John23832 4y ago
A fully remote company has no capital cost when it comes to building rent, taxes, electricity, etc… that all shifts to the worker. How is it that the company gets the glory for a perceived “pay raise”?
- randomsearch 4y ago
  For tech companies, rent quickly approaches zero in comparison to salaries.
  - John23832 4y ago
    That information doesn’t matter? If you need a certain headcount to provide your service, you need that headcount whether in office or at home. If office space is not required (or not provided) then it is a cost savings for the company.
    - randomsearch 4y ago
      > If office space is not required (or not provided) then it is a cost savings for the company. It's just not very significant. Just fire an employee instead, unless your offices are in Manhattan.
  - ryanbrunner 4y ago
    In office perks can be significant, particularly if you do full catered meals or something like that.
    - randomsearch 4y ago
      That’s a good point. I don’t know how widespread they are.
willcipriano 4y ago
That doesn't match my experience. I've found 2 jobs since the start of the pandemic, both fully remote, both paid within 5k of a similar "in office" job.

warpeggio 4y ago

Ah yes, the cargo cult of productivity - if i'm in the office, i'm producing value. I think about this quote from Bezos in 2017 a lot, which is quoted in Mik Kersten's Project to Product: "As companies get larger and more complex, there’s a tendency to manage to proxies. This comes in many shapes and sizes, and it’s dangerous, subtle, and very Day 2. A common example is process as proxy. Good process serves you so you can serve customers. But if you’re not watchful, the process can become the thing. This can happen very easily in large organizations. The process becomes the proxy for the result you want. You stop looking at outcomes and just make sure you’re doing the process right." I'd say "being in the office" is a proxy here.

randomsearch 4y ago
> I'd say "being in the office" is a proxy here. Recently I've been reading some docs on productivity, inspired by a comment on HN. There are some solid findings - don't work too many hours, put your team in a single office so they can directly chat to each other as and when needed, avoid external interruptions from outside that office, etc. It seems that a lot of the findings of improving productivity in-person may also imply that remote work drops productivity. For example, being at home with a bunch of other people in your house might dramatically increase the possibility of external interruption to the team. A discussion between two people in an office might be lower-friction and also instantly bring in other team mates to help if relevant - whilst that might lower individual productivity, the team as a whole is more productive. And this is not just speculation rather looking at existing studies and applying their conclusions to remote. Speculation from me: there's also the matter of lost communication through coffee and lunch breaks. Building that mutual understanding between individuals and about the system surely increases productivity. I think there's a big assumption on HN that individual productivity correlates with team and company productivity, and so if you get more "stuff" done wfh then it must be best. But that clearly isn't true from the experiments we've already done.

John23832 4y ago

A fully remote company has no capital cost when it comes to building rent, taxes, electricity, etc… that all shifts to the worker. How is it that the company gets the glory for a perceived “pay raise”?

randomsearch 4y ago
For tech companies, rent quickly approaches zero in comparison to salaries.
- John23832 4y ago
  That information doesn’t matter? If you need a certain headcount to provide your service, you need that headcount whether in office or at home. If office space is not required (or not provided) then it is a cost savings for the company.
  - randomsearch 4y ago
    > If office space is not required (or not provided) then it is a cost savings for the company. It's just not very significant. Just fire an employee instead, unless your offices are in Manhattan.
- ryanbrunner 4y ago
  In office perks can be significant, particularly if you do full catered meals or something like that.
  - randomsearch 4y ago
    That’s a good point. I don’t know how widespread they are.

willcipriano 4y ago

That doesn't match my experience. I've found 2 jobs since the start of the pandemic, both fully remote, both paid within 5k of a similar "in office" job.